Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

Oh, I don't know, the last time we had my Villiers special out - one of the Cust revival meetings - it caught and passed three 250 Ducatis....

Before seizing.....

I should probably get it going again, the rules allow it to go on alky now but I'd also want to do a belt primary, better ignition...etc etc....

Did you ever use the Alpha bottom end or some "other" type? did it originally start life as a 9E or a Starmaker or what?
Just goes to show that I haven't been around the scene for quite a long time or I would probably have seen it!
Oiling those primary chains was always a problem of course, but I must say that I'm amazed that final drive chains have survived, - ie considering the beatings they get these days! but I'm sure that good ones cost nearly as much as a shaft drive (but probably much more efficient!).

[Grumph]

Did you ever use the Alpha bottom end or some "other" type? did it originally start life as a 9E or a Starmaker or what?
Just goes to show that I haven't been around the scene for quite a long time or I would probably have seen it!
Oiling those primary chains was always a problem of course, but I must say that I'm amazed that final drive chains have survived, - ie considering the beatings they get these days! but I'm sure that good ones cost nearly as much as a shaft drive (but probably much more efficient!).

It uses all standard Villiers crank and rod believe it or not...6E cases mated to a Greeves 4 speed box. As first built it used the Villiers 3 speed box until it burst the bottom out of the box....Open primary (well sheet alloy guard like a G50) and an RD Yamaha clutch running dry.
When a Villiers collector here heard I was building it, he gave me a barrel which had been used on Cust back in the 50's by Pauline Nankivel, the only woman ever to race there. Timings were more what we'd use for trials nowadays.....
Only ever been run at meetings around ChCh. parked up since the mid 90's.

[WilDun]

It uses all standard Villiers crank and rod believe it or not...6E cases mated to a Greeves 4 speed box.

I must say that some amazing performances have been screwed out of the old E series Villiers and BSA Bantam engines, way way beyond what the designers intended - and a lot of fun was had by all! -
We shouldn't of course forget the BMC Mini and Hillman Imps ! which were much the same story really.
Guess that's the way bucket racers started out too.

[husaberg]

Oh, I don't know, the last time we had my Villiers special out - one of the Cust revival meetings - it caught and passed three 250 Ducatis....

Before seizing.....

I should probably get it going again, the rules allow it to go on alky now but I'd also want to do a belt primary, better ignition...etc etc....

Did you ever use the Alpha bottom end or some "other" type? did it originally start life as a 9E or a Starmaker or what?
Just goes to show that I haven't been around the scene for quite a long time or I would probably have seen it!
Oiling those primary chains was always a problem of course, but I must say that I'm amazed that final drive chains have survived, - ie considering the beatings they get these days! but I'm sure that good ones cost nearly as much as a shaft drive (but probably much more efficient!).

It uses all standard Villiers crank and rod believe it or not...6E cases mated to a Greeves 4 speed box. As first built it used the Villiers 3 speed box until it burst the bottom out of the box....Open primary (well sheet alloy guard like a G50) and an RD Yamaha clutch running dry.
When a Villiers collector here heard I was building it, he gave me a barrel which had been used on Cust back in the 50's by Pauline Nankivel, the only woman ever to race there. Timings were more what we'd use for trials nowadays.....
Only ever been run at meetings around ChCh. parked up since the mid 90's.

Funny thing with the Villiers gearboxes all the gears can be swapped around you can have any ratios for each gear you want.
My cylinder was 219cc had a oddball hepolite piston that was a smaller bore than the 225 Villiers but it did have alloy fins shrunk on the top. It was very mild withabout 5mm of the head and a 30mm carb and a expansion chamber designed by a 16 year old (me)
It was about the same speed as a MZ250TS (Yes that slow)
The Yam clutch was a good idea as the Villiers 8E and similar clutch was always naff with its pressed in cork plates. That said considering the chaincase was only attached with one bolt they rarely leaked oil though.
I always wanted to do one with a decent gearbox and clutch and Honda top end and internals and a decent Mag In a lightweight rigid frame and girder forks for Cust.
It would have been er.... "entertaining" on the humpbacked bridges
A plunger BSA box would work as it was bolt up semi unit.
The primary chain was decidedly puny on the early Villiers.

Yes that long track stuff is very exciting and Kenny Roberts is a very brave man for tackling it on a TZ750! - especially at his age.
Yes it would have interested me alright, I always liked to slide bikes around at speed sitting upright.
I could also go quite fast on the tarseal, ie for the first few laps then I either started to slow (tired out) or fell off, so the European type speedway would have suited me better, but those US guys sure had some skills! - 20 laps? not for me.

That little Spanish tandem twin looks like a neat package, but it doesn't ring a bell with me.

Husa, are you sure that it wasn't the Villa which morphed into the Jawa powerplant?
Pity about poor old Bill Ivy though - I think he let Phil Read get under his skin.
Read was good as a rider of course, but I've heard that he was not terribly popular otherwise.
That incident put Jawa out of the running as far as road racing was concerned, just as the death of Santiago Herrero in the IOM TT put Ossa out of business.

Not sure what came first or even if they are really related, it was just a feeling.

[Grumph]

The Yam clutch was a good idea as the Villiers 8E and similar clutch was always naff with its pressed in cork plates. That said considering the chaincase was only attached with one bolt they rarely leaked oil though.
I always wanted to do one with a decent gearbox and clutch and Honda top end and internals and a decent Mag In a lightweight rigid frame and girder forks for Cust.
It would have been er.... "entertaining" on the humpbacked bridges
A plunger BSA box would work as it was bolt up semi unit.
The primary chain was decidedly puny on the early Villiers.

I was accumulating bits for a twin Villiers mated to the early A7 plunger box. Yamaha DT360 cranks and rods. Crankwebs machined narrower to suit the small cases, DT360 primary gear with the teeth machined off as a crank coupler - they're splined rather than a taper. Big alloy plate with the 6/7/8E cases bolted one side and the box on the other.
Still got the crank bits but sold off the box and villiers bits long ago. Bro wanted the box for a Douglas project...
First version of my special was in a VERY lightweight rigid frame. Rider complained so I had to do something better. Bas Chambers bought the frame for a trials bike, LOL. You or your dad would remember him Husa.

[husaberg]

I was accumulating bits for a twin Villiers mated to the early A7 plunger box. Yamaha DT360 cranks and rods. Crankwebs machined narrower to suit the small cases, DT360 primary gear with the teeth machined off as a crank coupler - they're splined rather than a taper. Big alloy plate with the 6/7/8E cases bolted one side and the box on the other.
Still got the crank bits but sold off the box and villiers bits long ago. Bro wanted the box for a Douglas project...
First version of my special was in a VERY lightweight rigid frame. Rider complained so I had to do something better. Bas Chambers bought the frame for a trials bike, LOL. You or your dad would remember him Husa.

funny I remember the name.
Its mute though with anything Villiers a Ariel arrow or a greeves would still be a better starting point anyway.

[F5 Dave]

Stop fucking around and put a CR250 in it. Whatever the question is.

[Grumph]

Stop fucking around and put a CR250 in it. Whatever the question is.

Not oddball enough - and far too practical....

[husaberg]

Stop fucking around and put a CR250 in it. Whatever the question is.

Not oddball enough - and far too practical....

it was part of my post

Funny thing with the Villiers gearboxes all the gears can be swapped around you can have any ratios for each gear you want.
My cylinder was 219cc had a oddball hepolite piston that was a smaller bore than the 225 Villiers but it did have alloy fins shrunk on the top. It was very mild withabout 5mm of the head and a 30mm carb and a expansion chamber designed by a 16 year old (me)
It was about the same speed as a MZ250TS (Yes that slow)
The Yam clutch was a good idea as the Villiers 8E and similar clutch was always naff with its pressed in cork plates. That said considering the chaincase was only attached with one bolt they rarely leaked oil though.
I always wanted to do one with a decent gearbox and clutch and Honda top end and internals and a decent Mag In a lightweight rigid frame and girder forks for Cust.
It would have been er.... "entertaining" on the humpbacked bridges
A plunger BSA box would work as it was bolt up semi unit.
The primary chain was decidedly puny on the early Villiers.

.

[F5 Dave]

Not oddball enough - and far too practical....

OK then. How about make your own crankcases, a modified GT750 crank and three CR, no wait, make them RM250 barrels in a V configuration.

[husaberg]

OK then. How about make your own crankcases, a modified GT750 crank and three CR, no wait, make them RM250 barrels in a V configuration.

For those that are interested the GT 750 crank dimensions are here.
(Later)
http://www.ozebook.com/compendium/te...ions%206-9.pdf
The GT550 is likely better almost the same stroke.
But there are plenty of jetski and snowmobile stuff.
Mercury did a V8 twostroke for outboards.
the Artic Cat 660 for instance takes RGV250, or 200 cylinders as a bolt on.
btw that sounds like the bike you posted once
That had 3 Rm250 cylinders (might have been Wob or speedpro)
there was always the V4 I posted ages ago.

click on them three times
Have you heard anything from Pete Greg?

[F5 Dave]

Nah it was Jimmy.

[husaberg]

Nah it was Jimmy.

that posted it?
I was actually looking at it the other day.
It was in the ESE thread somewhere.
Speedpro posted these pics, but I have seen another pic somewhere as well.

bit closer to home, 3 X RM250 cylinders, home made engine in a ZXR750 chassis

Found the other pics

This is another example of exhaust pipe art. Jim Steadman's 750/3 that he built, bottom pipe. It does a reasonably tight loop straight out of the port before snaking aft. Pipe built by Nomates.

Jim Steadman, 75deg V3, 3x RM250s. Rumour has it that Dennis Charlott may be doing a few laps on it later in the year at a few chosen meetings.

There was also the other V4 The original BSL500
That Nomates,I guess still has?

Bill built a V4 - 500 that used YZ125 parts, with a pressed and welded frame.
It wasnt very clever, and he didnt like it when I said to him in the tent at Manfield that the guy who made the pipes should be shot.
I was with Mike Sinclair, Mike Webb and the other Mike the suspension guy from here in Tauranga.
They all told Bill to start again, and eventually he did.
When Loren and I turned up to start the project, he wanted us to finish the prototype, but as I pointed out there was no place to put the water pump,so that sealed its fate - bin it.

Another laugh I had was over Briggsy designing and building all the pipes, more rubbish.
I was so busy trying to get the engine rework done - I taught him what to do, and gave him the laser'd pattern designs and he welded and hammered some of the final few sets up, including some Ti ones.
Made some real nice ones too.
Jason Monopoly worked for John B, then came to us at BSL for 6 months.
He did all the glass styling/design work, and off that Roly made some stunning bodywork that worked well in the wind tunnel testing we did at AK Uni.
But alot was changed when Mike Sinclair mused about sidewind effects at 300Km/H

Nigels bike we worked on and off for about 10 years,going in fits when he had some money.
It was a pretty thing, as you can see from the pipes,but Nige finally gave up on trying to finish it - its gone to Rodent in Queenstown

Wish I'd taken some pics of Nigels V4 500 pipes, they were nice. Actually the whole bike was a cool project.

okay maybe not.

[husaberg]

Attachment 321642
That's not a V-engine at all Husa; it's two engines sharing a common gearbox, chassis and rider. If there's more than one crankshaft, it's more than one engine .
By the way, if you like that Derbi so much, you must also like its spitting image, the 125 cc aircooled Jawa twin. I wonder which one was first. I tried to find a picture of it, but no luck.

The Jawa was one of several projects the factory had going in '66 - appearing in '67. The 250 single production racer,250 parallel twin,revised 350 twin, 350 version of the V4 - and the 125 v twin.
First information on the 125 was released in April '67.
At Derbi, race chief Tombas constructed an "unofficial" prototype 125 V twin in 1967.

From Mick Walker's Classic European Motorcycles....

There are a couple of good pics of the Jawa too, neater than the Derbi IMO. I'll put them up when i have more time. Later today i hope.

Here is the Debri stuff I posted ages ago.

I also posted this Jawa in V4 form


I also found this

Fritz sent these through a couple of weeks ago but it's taken some time to get them up.

http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/DKW-Ja...-carbs-CRP.zip
http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/Honda-Suzuki-Yamahai.zip
http://kiwibiker.co.nz/images/Jamath...i-Kreidler.zip

[husaberg]

Jawa 125 net troll produced this
Note one of the pics has the upper exhaust between the cylinders

Also note the head finning



Plus some V4 drawings


I also found this imight have posted it before though but I don't care
The Clisby 24 cylinder "Formula 1” engine


http://www.collingrovehillclimb.com.au/haroldclisby/

With the impending change of F1 to 3 litres in 1966 it was obvious that the 1.5 litre Clisby V6 would never compete in F1 so Harold Clisby decided to build an all new racing engine.
This was to be a water-cooled, 2 stroke engine of modular construction so that the engine size could be varied if the capacity limit was changed. (Harold was unaware that 2 strokes were not allowed in F1 and when he found out, he still went ahead any way!)
The theory was to build a single cylinder, 125 cc engine and develop it to produce around 18 to 20 bhp.
Four of these 125 cc engines, each with a bevel gear on the output shaft, were to be attached to a common housing which contained a larger bevel geared output shaft that mated to each of the engine. This produced a 500 cc module and two modules could be stacked together to produce an 8 cylinder 1 litre engine or three modules to produce a 1500 cc engine etc. In the case of the 3 litre engine there would be six 500 cc modules or 24 cylinders.
The 4 cylinder, 500 cc module
General arrangement drawing of 24 cylinder, 3 litre engine
The single cylinder engine ran successfully and was raced in a go-kart. Harold designed a small electric dyno which I built but it never worked very well and I don’t know what hp we achieved.
I built one 4 cylinder module but this was never fired up as by that time I was busy with developing cylinder heads castings for the Repco-Brabham project.
The 4 engines were later mounted in a Norton motorcycle in a two by two arrangement but I don’t think it ever raced.