Oddball engines and prototypes

[husaberg]

Plus a rather interesting one a 500 Triumph twin converted to a blown 2 stroke.

[WilDun]

Makes me feel old looking at those ideas which were interesting at the time!
The 4T Villiers and the Ariel Arrow of the same era only produced 17BHP whereas my Suzuki T20 (250cc) produced I think 29 BHP, although I suspect it would have been hopless without it's 6 speed box! - it had to be revved.
In those days it had become unfashionable to have a bike without a narrow power band, so those engines didn't really stand a chance of making it!
It's really the whims of all the young guys that govern the sale of bikes, not good design and modest but manageable (sensible)power!
Normally on the T20 if I wanted to pass on the open road I had to change down two gears before opening the throttle! but it was fast for a 250.
The article on the TD1C Yamaha and the Suzuki T20 was very good and I remember the vibration, the fading front brake, and the bendy frame (plus bendy forks which juddered when I braked hard) - all exactly as they describe it, but I did learn to let myself go, instead of trying to fight it and somehow it managed to get round the corners quite fast, but it also threw me a couple of times too!

EDIT - Vaguely remember reading about that "Triumph" two stroke too!

[Grumph]

Will - Villiers simply would not see the writing on the wall. The world was looking for lightweight performance two strokes and Villiers kept with ride to work putterers. Many, many people were getting quite good power out of Villiers engines but the factory simply weren't interested.
Motocross was booming - which would last for a long time - and their motors were being used as the base for Greeves - even if most of the Villiers parts were tossed away...Still no interest.
The Starmaker was their last effort at catching that market. Too late to save them. Good effort though, well made even if it's short of transfer area.
Too little too late.

In retrospect, that four was never going to be a commercial proposition, but it should have sparked some ideas in Villiers design office....

[WilDun]

Well Will, here is some more.
Also courtesy of Grumph.
Last one I never knew the 4T viliers had a piston ring centre lab seal........

I think that the Yamahas had labryinth centre seals, but I also think that the piston ring type seal on the 4T was different to a labyrinth seal, - I could be wrong of course.

GRUMPH, Yeah you are right, those guys in the British design offices just wanted to cruise along on past achievements and didn't expect that the Japs would amount to anything, then it was suddenly all over!
Those early Jap bikes had horsepower to spare (and no bloody torque) but we were all so happy with high revs and six speed gearboxes that we didn't really notice.
The 500cc H1 Kawasaki and the 750cc H2 were the ultimate in unmanageable street bikes, but they did thrill (and kill) us young "tossers" so that was the end of the British bikes.

[tjbw]

Husa / Grumph, That's a pretty good article (and drawings),
...

I was also admiring the V4 drawing, wondering how many hours Brian Hatton spent on it.

[Grumph]

I was also admiring the V4 drawing, wondering how many hours Brian Hatton spent on it.

Typical of the technical illustrations you'd see in the Brit mags in the 50's and 60's.
I've got a very small reproduction of one of the Ferrari SOHC V12 - circa 1952.
Pretty sure i've seen the full size version in Auto Restorations in ChCh - it must have been of assistance when doing Gavin Bain's ex Rosier F1 car..
There's a section in a book I have - the Grand prix car by Pomeroy - which is preliminary sketches by Caldwell for all the examples drawn in the book.
Amazing stuff.

[husaberg]

I think that the Yamahas had labryinth centre seals, but I also think that the piston ring type seal on the 4T was different to a labyrinth seal, - I could be wrong of course.

GRUMPH, Yeah you are right, those guys in the British design offices just wanted to cruise along on past achievements and didn't expect that the Japs would amount to anything, then it was suddenly all over!
Those early Jap bikes had horsepower to spare (and no bloody torque) but we were all so happy with high revs and six speed gearboxes that we didn't really notice.
The 500cc H1 Kawasaki and the 750cc H2 were the ultimate in unmanageable street bikes, but they did thrill (and kill) us young "tossers" so that was the end of the British bikes.

Lab refers to the seal type, they can be a series of grooves like the Yamaha and others,


or a piston ring or rings in a groove
The first use of the piston ring seal i have seen was in the DKW triples.
pics to follow.
Note Teflon has likely rendered them not a HP saver.


PS will it wasn't the design offices it was the company directors and shareholders the brits had amazing designers, that were not able to build anything that would require money spent on retooling the factories.
Have a look at all the worlds motorsports they are designed and for a major part built in the UK.

[WilDun]

Lab refers to the seal type, they can be a series of grooves like the Yamaha and others .............
or a piston ring or rings in a groove
PS will it wasn't the design offices it was the company directors and shareholders the brits had amazing designers, that were not able to build anything that would require money spent on retooling the factories.

Yes, Husa I think you've probably got it all spot on, (ie the seal thing) and as far as the directors were concerned, they were just pleasing the shareholders and not on their guard!
Thing is, the Brits at that time were still more or less still bankrupt from WW2 and had just lost their Empire but the people just didn't realise it!
The Japs and Germans by comparison were 'on the pigs back' because the Americans invested money in those two countries, ie money which the Poms and Russians had to pay back to them for all the gear they borrowed during WW2. - funny old world!

[Frits Overmars]

Lab refers to the seal type, they can be a series of grooves like the Yamaha and others, or a piston ring or rings in a groove.

You can easily build you own labyrinth with a stack of shims. Jan Thiel used this system in the Garelli 250cc V-twin. The whole shim package was only 5 mm thick.

[husaberg]

You can easily build you own labyrinth with a stack of shims. Jan Thiel used this system in the Garelli 250cc V-twin. The whole shim package was only 5 mm thick.

Well that's very neat and clever. I don't think I have ever seen that many pictures of that engine at all. Other than that ones you posted their with Jan.
are their anymore floating about.

[Frits Overmars]

Well that's very neat and clever. I don't think I have ever seen that many pictures of that engine at all. Other than that one you posted their with Jan. are their anymore floating about.

No, not many Husa. But here are a few.

[husaberg]

No, not many Husa. But here are a few.

I found this.



this one just for the noise

[tjbw]

Here's a very odd looking machine.

It has 840cc V twin diesel engine (smoke generator). Both wheels have hydrostatic drive, and it also features air suspension, and twin turbochargers.

Have a look at the video here:
https://youtu.be/humZvaGnlsw

[ken seeber]

Great pictures and stories.
The labyrinth seals thing got me thinking. I wonder if one could use these in an external situation, ie under the magneto side, rather than just between cylinders? Maybe also, could they be used under the primary drive gear? If it does leak a bit either way, maybe use 2 stroke oil in the gearbox and use this as the engine lubricant supply or part supply. Possibly a tad hard to control though.

[husaberg]

Great pictures and stories.
The labyrinth seals thing got me thinking. I wonder if one could use these in an external situation, ie under the magneto side, rather than just between cylinders? Maybe also, could they be used under the primary drive gear? If it does leak a bit either way, maybe use 2 stroke oil in the gearbox and use this as the engine lubricant supply or part supply. Possibly a tad hard to control though.

Ken have a look at the woolley 50cc Honda seal from the greeves, its exactly what it was used for. It saved 2.5 hp (out of 30HP)and lasted forever compared to the high friction gator seals of the time that lasted a meating or two.

http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...post1130983699