Oddball engines and prototypes

[WilDun]

French, do you think i should i write him a letter.

My head was done (in) by the wife ........ porquoi? ....... je ne sais pas - it was fine before that!!

[lohring]

I think this seriously qualifies as an oddball engine. It may succeed in sealing the rotor better than all the other rotary engines. The plug in the inner element, rotor surface finish and accuracy, as well as other factors may give problems. I want to see a prototype.

Lohring Miller

[WilDun]

I think this seriously qualifies as an oddball engine. It may succeed in sealing the rotor better than all the other rotary engines. The plug in the inner element, rotor surface finish and accuracy, as well as other factors may give problems. I want to see a prototype. Lohring Miller

Yes, this guy (and his colleagues I guess) certainly have a lot of very interesting refreshing ideas (and fantastic animations as well) ) but let's face it, all ideas spring from someone else's unfulfilled or abandoned ideas and as you say it would be nice to see a prototype.

A while ago he appeared on the ESE thread, which as you know is mostly about members who want to display their efforts to improve existing two stroke technology in Bucket racing etc. - In fact that's basically why this thread was started, ie in order to prevent the ESE thread becoming too cluttered with other stuff!

Moving to this thread would have made a lot of people take a keen interest in what he was trying to get across....... but unfortunately he didn't - even though we suggested he should.

[WilDun]

Sorry Ken, I just nicked this post from ESE, but ESE had moved on (as it does!) and I didn't want to go back and bring it up again - that's where this thread comes in.

Below is an excerpt from:

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/op...s-first-gp-win

"Honda’s CBR600 has powered Moto2 since its inaugural 2010 season, but the 600 is nearing the end of its shelf life, so the class needs a new engine. Many alternatives were considered, including a return to 250 two-strokes, with a 250cc v-twin version of the Suter 500 V4.

Triumph's new 765cc triple that will power Moto2 from 2019
A 750 (in fact 765cc) makes a lot of sense because Moto2’s job is to get riders ready for 260 horsepower MotoGP bikes, so they need to learn to spin the rear tyre and use the throttle to steer. This season Moto2 gets traction control and other rider aids for the first time, because riders also need to learn about electronics before they graduate to the premier class. Traction control isn’t really required by a 125bhp 600 but it will come in handy with a 160 horsepower 765."

So close yet so far.

Better get it ready for next time Fletto.

Probably that engine was inspired by the very successful Smith's Triumph as used in BSB and in road races such as the TT etc.

Very interesting link - I had a lot of respect for Doug Hele, Val Page, Vincent etc. in fact all the brilliant engineers who didn't really get a fair go from management.
When I look back at pics of the Tiger 100 etc I now realize what good looking, uncomplicated machines they were!
The only Triumph I ever owned was a Tigress scooter (which BTW was a good machine), it handled just as well as their bikes! - it had a 250cc twin four stroke engine which was originally used in the ill fated Sunbeam S2 motorcycle built for the American market.

I rode a Norton Dominator 600 and was very fond of that, but I believe that Triumphs had the edge on speed - however the Norton handled better! (and yes Frits, it did leak oil!)

I was also very interested in Doug Hele's design for a balance shaft for the vertical twins and rejected by management as you'd expect! - I believe Ducati used a similar arrangement in their single cylinder 500 just a few years ago.
I think all this may have been discussed a while back in this thread.

It was sad to see Doug Hele ending up at British Seagull to see his working life out, but at least they could still offer him a job which is more than the British motorcycle industry could after they collapsed under the weight if the Japanese!

[Michael Moore]

Frederick Lanchester patented balance shafts for engines in the early 20th century:

https://www.google.com/patents/US1163832

Nothing (or very little) new under the sun!

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

Dr Lanchester also invented the pre-selector gearbox, seems he was a clever man but would not suffer fools!


Triumph twin balancer (by Doug Hele).

[Grumph]

Dr Lanchester also invented the pre-selector gearbox, seems he was a clever man but would not suffer fools!
Triumph twin balancer (by Doug Hele).

That's a Laverda 180 deg triple crank with a captive center rod....I remember reading an interview with Hele where he said they'd stripped a CB500 Honda four. They realised they didn't have the machinery to make it - or the capital to buy the machinery...I suspect Triumph/BSA couldn't have made that crank setup.

Lanchester I believe said that the driver's sight line in a car should be at the same level as a man walking. Wonder how he'd have liked the low driving positions of today.

[husaberg]

Dr Lanchester also invented the pre-selector gearbox, seems he was a clever man but would not suffer fools!


Triumph twin balancer (by Doug Hele).

Alfred Scott from memory invented the kickstart.
Here is some other intersting stuff
http://www.scotttechnicalities.com.a...e%20Topics.pdf

[Michael Moore]

They realised they didn't have the machinery to make it

I've got a small book put out by Pratt and Whitney about the company history. One of the anecdotes I remember was when they were gearing up for WW2 production. They had a group of industry leaders/boffins over from England to tour an engine plant to discuss production on both sides of the Atlantic. The visitors were looking over a table of parts and commenting how they would struggle to make them to that standard, if they could at all. When they were told that was a table of parts that had failed QC inspection they thought they were having them on.

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

I've got a small book put out by Pratt and Whitney about the company history. ................. When they were told that was a table of parts that had failed QC inspection they thought they were having them on.

cheers,
Michael

Small countries ( or any third world country as well, big or small) pull through (or lose) using anything they have to the fullest extent, an extreme example would be Vietnam, where the people could use any materials which we would have discarded to make just about anything!

Large industrial countries win through because of their big populations and resources and work hard producing excess goods, they pick out the best for themselves and dump as much as possible in the poorer countries.

Anyway, the point is that Britain, although it had been rich through it's empire, was now cut off from that, so at that time was desperate and had very little in the way of hardware or resources to take on Germany but were still coming up with some amazing technology using only the old machinery and techniques they had to produce it. (eg they finished the bearing journals on the Merlin aircraft engines by hand lapping them!), whereas later when Packard in the US also started to produce them for the Mustangs and Mosquitoes used the latest technology to finish grind them........ Bet they (the British) would have used that table of QC failed parts anyway!


New Zealand has always been a small country (pretty much the same size as Japan) but with a much smaller population and so was not always able to get hold of all the latest technology, however still came up with some brilliant ideas and people, who made an impact on the world.
Some last remains of that "make do with what you have" spirit, can still be seen in the Bucket Racing fraternity!

Money is not only the root of all evil, it is the root of everything ......... an unfortunate state of affairs!

[Michael Moore]

I don't think it was a case that the industry folks from the UK couldn't make the parts to the tolerances needed because they clearly could make some excellent stuff, but it was more that they couldn't do it on a production basis with the quantities that were expected.

Too, it wasn't like here in the States we were having factories bombed on a near daily basis the way they were in England. We were busy putting up brand new factories with brand new tools in them, not looking to see which crater the tool had ended up in after the raid.

cheers,
Michael

[WilDun]

I don't think it was a case that the industry folks from the UK couldn't make the parts to the tolerances needed because they clearly could make some excellent stuff, but it was more that they couldn't do it on a production basis with the quantities that were expected.

Too, it wasn't like here in the States we were having factories bombed on a near daily basis the way they were in England. We were busy putting up brand new factories with brand new tools in them, not looking to see which crater the tool had ended up in after the raid.

cheers,
Michael

Had a look through my last post, - did I say all that stuff? - think I talk too much - but that's me, for better or for worse!

Yes Michael all true but as I said money is the root of everything and to be honest, you guys did save their bacon with that!
The unfortunate thing was they had to hand over most of their technology (in lieu of cash) to repay the debt! - But then it was either that or be on the receiving end of a tyrant!

How is your foundry work progressing these days? you were doing well a while back! not that this thread needs to catch any overflow from the foundry thread of course, unlike like ESE sometimes does.

[Michael Moore]

It has been quiet on the foundry front but I did some CNC stuff for Jeff and he's going to do the mold boxes and match boards for my cylinder head pattern. I don't like woodwork! A couple of heads before the new race season starts would be of help to several people.

[husaberg]

I've got a small book put out by Pratt and Whitney about the company history. One of the anecdotes I remember was when they were gearing up for WW2 production. They had a group of industry leaders/boffins over from England to tour an engine plant to discuss production on both sides of the Atlantic. The visitors were looking over a table of parts and commenting how they would struggle to make them to that standard, if they could at all. When they were told that was a table of parts that had failed QC inspection they thought they were having them on.

cheers,
Michael

The Brits used to get around the tolerences by using selective fit.
From what i understand Harley Davidson are actually still made like that, as they can't achive Japanese style Production tolerences.

[pete376403]

When an engine may only last a few hours before the plane is shot down, is it worth the effort to make parts to such fine tolerances?