Oddball engines and prototypes

[Frits Overmars]

He was known as "the knife and fork man", which was something to do with him doing development work in his "simple" home workshop.

My first thought was about the way Harley-Davidson fit their con rods, also known as knife & fork. Charles Redrup did it the same way in his 3 cylinder radial.

[lohring]

So are you only interested in straight electric power as opposed to hybrid?

Not really. We were interested in setting specific records. The ultimate water speed record also was interesting, but we didn't want to die. For a while we thought about a steam engine record setting boat, but that's a topic for another forum. I think fully electric cars with current battery technology are here, but not at a reasonable cost yet. Maintenance and construction cost will be much simpler with the exception of batteries. That's also been true for a century.

Airplanes and fast boats run at much higher power levels so hybrids make more sense for them so far. Even with over a century of development the automotive IC engine is a complicated beast. That history, and the sophistication of the seemingly simple two stroke are what makes all this fun.

Lohring Miller

[husaberg]

My first thought was about the way Harley-Davidson fit their con rods, also known as knife & fork. Charles Redrup did it the same way in his 3 cylinder radial.

Indian were knife and fork as well
Here is one Berty built in a shed earlier with a few broken files and a borrowed mill made out of a ford Truck axel later ones were caterpillar grader axles squashed flat with a forge and a power hammer
They lasted 20 years they were replaced when then the engine was converted to positive oil supply.
Pretty sure Grumph was saying this trophy has disappeared now.

[tjbw]

My first thought was about the way Harley-Davidson fit their con rods, also known as knife & fork. Charles Redrup did it the same way in his 3 cylinder radial.

Yes, I think it would be more meaningful to call him the knife and fork man for that reason. Perhaps you should edit his page on Wikipedia

Now, if he was the knife and fork man in 1920s, by the mid 1930s he should have been known as spiderman, on account of his radial engine conrod spider. Don't anyone dare suggest he should be known as wobbly

The drawing of his Barry engine shows levers on either side of petrol tank, one links to the carb, the other links to inlet port on hollow crankshaft, and could provide control over inlet port timing?

I'm puzzled by the small hose from carb to hollow crankshaft, the diameter looks too small, and it's long. How can the engine breath through that? Why not connect carb direct to the crankshaft?

[WilDun]

I haven't as yet been able to fathom out what you have mentioned about the Barry Engine, but neither have I figured out the significance of the parallel conrod concept in the 9 cylinder radial but the fact that unlike nearly all radials there is no "master" conrod might be a clue! Guess it must have worked anyway because that guy was no fool (but a little unconventional!) - whether those unconventional conrods and unconventional pistons would have added much to manufacturing cost I don't know, I suspect that they might - but good lateral thinking anyway - I'll have to read more!

BTW the Daimler Benz V12 in the ME 109 also had "knife and fork" rods and I'm not sure about the RR Merlin.

Think "Wobbly" may have got his name for some reason other than for being a fan of the wobble plate engine!

Husa, guess you are referring to Bert Munro - that guy was unstoppable and always different! and of course he must have derived a lot of pleasure from doing things his way ..... and always on a shoestring! I had the pleasure of having a lengthy (well a few minutes) discussion with him on the starting line at Pukekohe not long after his success at Daytona, he was in no hurry to get back into the stand before the start (much to the displeasure of the officials who wanted to get the race underway!) - lots of eyes raised skywards!

[Grumph]

The Burt trophy illustrated is I think still given at The Burt Munro Challenge. The one missing is a severely bent and twisted Goldie rod...

I'd pick that the Barry engine was drawn by the typical technical illustrator of the period - who knew nothing. If it ever ran in that form I'd be surprised.

[Grumph]

A lot of the aero engines of the pre war period - and afterward - used "master and slave" rods. Both in radials and inline V engines. Nothing wrong wiith them either in something that never goes above 3000 rpm.
I was amused to see that the guy who cuts up kawasakis and makes them into unusual multis - Alan Milyard - has used master and slave rods in his V12 engine. This is basically two Z1300 sixes mitered together. Seems to work well too. Saved a lot of crank length...

[husaberg]

The Burt trophy illustrated is I think still given at The Burt Munro Challenge. The one missing is a severely bent and twisted Goldie rod...

I'd pick that the Barry engine was drawn by the typical technical illustrator of the period - who knew nothing. If it ever ran in that form I'd be surprised.

Shit so two Bert trophies are in existence made with conrods?
In the other two pics are conrods he made out of some very low spec aluminium alloy he got from George Begg they lasted a few minutes each in the Velo.

[WilDun]

The RR Merlin rod layout:- which came first? the Harley or the Rolls?

[Grumph]

The RR Merlin rod layout:- which came first? the Harley or the Rolls?

Specifically, of those two, the Harley. But knife and fork rods were almost certainly used much earlier in V twin steam engines.
It's an attrractive layout if you want to put cylinders on the same centerline.

[Frits Overmars]

Specifically, of those two, the Harley. But knife and fork rods were almost certainly used much earlier in V twin steam engines. It's an attrractive layout if you want to put cylinders on the same centerline.

O yes, it's a wonderful layout if you want to put one cylinder of an air-cooled V-twin right behind the other .

[Grumph]

O yes, it's a wonderful layout if you want to put one cylinder of an air-cooled V-twin right behind the other .

Oh, agreed - and remember it was highly popular for those marvels of cooling, the side valve V twin.....

[ken seeber]

Oh, agreed - and remember it was highly popular for those marvels of cooling, the side valve V twin.....

Oh agreed, and also as good as the sound of a HD, gasping for breath on every stroke when it’s trying to idle at its 223 rpm with the carburettor randomly making its mind up as to go either too rich or too lean on every random stroke.

[Grumph]

Oh agreed, and also as good as the sound of a HD, gasping for breath on every stroke when it’s trying to idle at its 223 rpm with the carburettor randomly making its mind up as to go either too rich or too lean on every random stroke.

You forgot the trademarked "potato - potato' exhaust note, Ken - but I like your way with words....

[WilDun]

You forgot the trademarked "potato - potato' exhaust note, Ken - but I like your way with words....

Yes, ...... and all these things together impress a lot of the population who never actually think very deeply about anything except spectacular sights and sounds which make them look and feel like "mean guys".
Admittedly it does hook some thinkers as well, (ie those who have slightly skewed view of the motorcycle world). - I do however refuse to discuss two stroke fans (like myself) because we are squeaky clean in all areas!
I'd say, whatever turns you on, just don't expect everyone's approval! (but I'm sure that what you are actually looking for is disapproval). and .... so long as you don't expect to be able to flout the law regarding noise etc. when all the others have to comply! and that does happen ..... but how does it happen?.