Oddball engines and prototypes

**F5 Dave** · 11th May 2016, 12:38

Gosh. Wonder where those ideas originally germinated? Cough. Chapman. Cough. Lotus.

**WilDun** · 11th May 2016, 15:01

Originally Posted by tjbw

Good to see you back Will.

I was surprised to find that John DeLorean, the well known County Antrim car builder, patented a swashplate engine in 1985. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4557232.pdf

Some of his handwritten notes from 1980 on axial engine design can be found here:

http://jalopnik.com/deloreans-next-r...531/1484290943

Some interesting ideas in there, including laser ignition, ceramic block, variable compression, energy recovery, and rotary valves.

Thanks guys, not quite back yet but getting there!

However I don't think John De Lorean was a county Antrim man! (I might add that Dr. Gordon Blair who did some important development work for various engine makers actually was from Co Antrim).
De Lorean was a New Yorker, but he did have a factory in a Belfast (which is partly in Co Antrim I guess). However, he was there to take advantage of the generous British incentives to get industry back on track in Belfast also to piss off General Motors where he previously had had a very good job (and was possibly sacked?).
He was running low on funds and resorted to some messy business practices which finally brought him down.

As for the swashplate/cam track/ wobble plate axial engines, there were quite a few of them being developed at various times, one of them being a similar "cam track" version as on one of the links you posted. This is possibly actually in production as an aircraft engine in USA but which, although actually a certified aircraft engine, hasn't really met with any resounding success as yet!
These axial piston engines have always intrigued me though, as they could be a very neat and tidy answer, ie if they could solve all the valve problems they tend to have.
As I have said before, the old tried and true stuff is still doing a sterling job and to change the course of something so entrenched would be a massive undertaking.

That's what I reckon anyway

**Grumph** · 11th May 2016, 19:23

Originally Posted by F5 Dave

Gosh. Wonder where those ideas originally germinated? Cough. Chapman. Cough. Lotus.

Doubt it. Remember he'd been very high up in GM...An old guy here, whose rolling road we used to use, now dead, did two years at the experimental engine division of Chev post his time in the Can- Am series. He told of weekly brainstorming sessions where anything could be discussed - and top management often attended....
There was apparently an understanding that if it was worth going ahead with, GM would patent it. He reckoned a hell of a lot never got patented.

**F5 Dave** · 11th May 2016, 19:59

Fair call. Just figured with the diversion of money flowing to Lotus from DeLorean co. that some brain matter transfer would have occurred the other way. Lotus later played with rotary valves. Ahh I don't really know shit about car stuff, just the various docos on TV that everyone has no doubt seen.

**tjbw** · 13th May 2016, 14:51

Originally Posted by WilDun

Thanks guys, not quite back yet but getting there!

However I don't think John De Lorean was a county Antrim man! (I might add that Dr. Gordon Blair who did some important development work for various engine makers actually was from Co Antrim).
De Lorean was a New Yorker, but he did have a factory in a Belfast (which is partly in Co Antrim I guess). However, he was there to take advantage of the generous British incentives to get industry back on track in Belfast also to piss off General Motors where he previously had had a very good job (and was possibly sacked?).
He was running low on funds and resorted to some messy business practices which finally brought him down.

As for the swashplate/cam track/ wobble plate axial engines, there were quite a few of them being developed at various times, one of them being a similar "cam track" version as on one of the links you posted. This is possibly actually in production as an aircraft engine in USA but which, although actually a certified aircraft engine, hasn't really met with any resounding success as yet!
These axial piston engines have always intrigued me though, as they could be a very neat and tidy answer, ie if they could solve all the valve problems they tend to have.
As I have said before, the old tried and true stuff is still doing a sterling job and to change the course of something so entrenched would be a massive undertaking.

That's what I reckon anyway

Yes, Blair was from Larne, and Delorean built the cars at Dunmurry, County Antrim.

I'm wondering if a swashplate engine is more efficient at longer strokes (higher plate angle).

Perhaps a two stroke axial engine, with Ryger style primary compression, would work better than DeLorean's Aspin rotary valved design

**Ocean1** · 13th May 2016, 16:28

Originally Posted by tjbw

Perhaps a two stroke axial engine, with Ryger style primary compression, would work better than DeLorean's Aspin rotary valved design

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintag...team-engine-2/

And I love it.

**husaberg** · 13th May 2016, 18:00

Originally Posted by Ocean1

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintag...team-engine-2/

And I love it.

His excelsior is pretty cool as well.
Our own Grumph gets a mention on the Macchi pages as well

**Flettner** · 13th May 2016, 18:22

Originally Posted by Ocean1

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintag...team-engine-2/

And I love it.

Fucken WOW, how cool is that. What a lot of work.

**Grumph** · 13th May 2016, 19:34

Originally Posted by husaberg

His excelsior is pretty cool as well.
Our own Grumph gets a mention on the Macchi pages as well

I used to be in fairly regular contact with him - even sold him a frame.
Talking to him once I found he was doing internal splining by hand with a single point tool in a mill...I told him how to make a broach....
He obviously doesn't maintain his website, I asked to be taken off the contacts list some time back.

**tjbw** · 13th May 2016, 20:07

Originally Posted by Ocean1

I went looking for an elbow engine to contribute to the discussion.

But I got sidetracked...

http://flashbackfab.com/other-vintag...team-engine-2/

And I love it.

Wowww, I love steam, love that project. The complete website is great.

**WilDun** · 13th May 2016, 21:51

Originally Posted by tjbw

Yes, Blair was from Larne, and Delorean built the cars at Dunmurry, County Antrim.

I'm wondering if a swashplate engine is more efficient at longer strokes (higher plate angle).

Perhaps a two stroke axial engine, with Ryger style primary compression, would work better than DeLorean's Aspin rotary valved design

Yes some possibilities there but I think I would go for a wobble plate motor, the swashplate would not be at all efficient at higher revs because of high surface and rubbing speeds - lubrication might cause problems, good in a hydraulic pump or motor though!

Yes, but Dunmurry is really Belfast, much like Glengormley etc. etc. - a suburb ...... Oh and don't forget that Jonathan Rea came originally from Larne!

**tjbw** · 13th May 2016, 22:16

Originally Posted by WilDun

Yes some possibilities there but I think I would go for a wobble plate motor, the swashplate would not be at all efficient at higher revs because of high surface and rubbing speeds - lubrication might cause problems, good in a hydraulic pump or motor though!

Yes, but Dunmurry is really Belfast, much like Glengormley etc. etc. - a suburb ...... Oh and don't forget that Jonathan Rea came originally from Larne!

Yes, swashplate looks better for pumps. DeLorean mentioned wobble plate in his notes, but the sketches show swashplates.

All of Belfast which is north of the Lagan is in County Antrim. I heard that the Antrim boundary has been extended to include all or part of Belfast which is south of the Lagan and was previously in County Down!

**WilDun** · 14th May 2016, 10:41

OCEAN,
Sorry to sidetrack your contribution, just trying to clear up a few things about my old stomping ground (Co Antrim)!

Way back, I was also very impressed by the elbow type engines you mentioned - d'you reckon they could benefit from having the "barrels" connected by a bevel gear just to keep them honest?
Sliding exhaust valves of various types are always a problem although Duke engines seem to have managed to get them to work satisfactorily - maybe also use the bevels as a power transmission takeoff point as well?