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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2836
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    Hey Will,
    Hope all goes well with you and family,why would anyone want to move from paradise elsewhere?This bit of thread was started from Kevin Cameron's article stating the twin piston 2stroke is the future F1 engine,,Surely it must howl and spin trillions of RPM's to keep the spectators from napping..so a steady state engine wouldnt be what he is writing about..Are we talking the same engine or am I missing something??
    Cheers, John

  2. #2837
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    Hey Will,
    Hope all goes well with you and family,why would anyone want to move from paradise elsewhere?This bit of thread was started from Kevin Cameron's article stating the twin piston 2stroke is the future F1 engine,,Surely it must howl and spin trillions of RPM's to keep the spectators from napping..so a steady state engine wouldnt be what he is writing about..Are we talking the same engine or am I missing something??
    Cheers, John
    John,
    It's long story associated with grandkids health problems so very necessary - not what we want to happen of course!

    No, not specifically about racing, more about the survival of the two stroke in every aspect of it's existence! - and to be honest I actually only sat down and read through Kevin Cameron's article properly a couple of days ago, so any thoughts from me on this subject are not based on that, but still good news! - I have been (very) slowly working through all this stuff for many years and when I heard of F1 etc taking an interest I have been reviewing things once more..... and I don't expect that anything I think will have much of an impact - I'm just a very interested party i guess!!

    The kind of sound we want is really what we become accustomed to I guess - the old "steamies" had to lose their longing for Choo Choo noises, the old racing guys had to forget the sound of the old slow revving singles, so what's really different?

    We don't need to incorporate racing rules and sounds etc into our everyday real life (rejuvenated) two stroke design, but we still want to! - we find it hard to change from designs "tainted" by the racing rules which have been deeply ingrained in us! - racing is good, but the real everyday world is a different situation!
    So lets break out and explore the big wide "real world"! - Racing is great, no doubt about that, but it's more about personalities than engine noise! - you can hardly even hear the sound of the engines on TV! and when you do hear it, it's not exciting like the sounds in sixties were anyway!
    I watch it all the time but we do put up with (for example) a mandatory 250 cc single four stroke putting out less HP than the 250 cc racers of the sixties (eg the Moto Morini from around 1963 - 65, a single cylinder Italian 250cc four stroke capable of beating the Honda fours)! - that's all in the past. - we could ask ourselves, is that really the way to go? - We have however been accepting that for a while and of course its still good racing! .... so perhaps the "retrograde" step of going back to 3 cylinder supercharged two strokes (in the big real world) isn't really so silly after all!
    Freedom of speech is important - but
    P.C. has destroyed our right to speak the truth.

  3. #2838
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    This thread hasn't moved for a while I see - i decided not to contribute because of some other problems - but then came the lockdowm ...... so ...... just checking - the other 2 threads have been re-lit I see - frightening to see the ESE one just about die!!
    Freedom of speech is important - but
    P.C. has destroyed our right to speak the truth.

  4. #2839
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDun View Post
    This thread hasn't moved for a while I see - i decided not to contribute because of some other problems - but then came the lockdowm ...... so ...... just checking - the other 2 threads have been re-lit I see - frightening to see the ESE one just about die!!

    I agree with you, I also break my self-blocking of not writing.
    I want to thank the people in this forum for being kind enough to share the details of the NEW DIRECT INJECTION 2-STROKE ENGINES INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOP & CONFERENCE.
    This event was publicized on a facebook page before its celebration and since then only here has it had any expectations, which shows the lack of interest on the part of the 2S community to solve the 2S contamination problems.
    For me the one that most attracts me is ORBITAl. due to the question of whether a 4S would not be better for these machines (the ones that appear in this movie, for so many hours they are in flight)Click image for larger version. 

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  5. #2840
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    KEN SEEBER would be able to tell you all about the Orbital/ Suzuki engine I'm sure - I think he may actually have worked on it! - (he has contributed a lot to this thread) ....... Keep safe in Espana - I have a cousin who also lives there!
    Freedom of speech is important - but
    P.C. has destroyed our right to speak the truth.

  6. #2841
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDun View Post
    KEN SEEBER would be able to tell you all about the Orbital/ Suzuki engine I'm sure - I think he may actually have worked on it! - (he has contributed a lot to this thread) ....... Keep safe in Espana - I have a cousin who also lives there!


    Thank you very much, I hope you are well too.
    Due to having more time now, movies of all kinds are seen and in this (goodkill) you discover that UAVs spend 12 hours flying, which does not fit with the use of the 2S, the fuel consumption would be 1/3 plus 4S ( larger tank, more weight), to use a normal engine.
    And here you discover that what is the degree of efficiency of D-tech since armies always use the best technology

  7. #2842
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    Quote Originally Posted by ceci View Post
    Thank you very much, I hope you are well too.
    Due to having more time now, movies of all kinds are seen and in this (goodkill) you discover that UAVs spend 12 hours flying, which does not fit with the use of the 2S, the fuel consumption would be 1/3 plus 4S ( larger tank, more weight), to use a normal engine.
    And here you discover that what is the degree of efficiency of D-tech since armies always use the best technology
    Flettner has successfully designed a nice little 700cc twin cylinder liquid cooled lighweight 2S with a balance shaft and last I heard was planning to fit his own (extremely successful fuel injection system developed over the years in his Kawasaki Bighorn) and is currently flying with this engine in his gyrocopter!
    Freedom of speech is important - but
    P.C. has destroyed our right to speak the truth.

  8. #2843
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    Ceci,

    The Orbital system is pretty neat, one perceived shortcoming being the need for an air compressor, typically around 1/25th of the engine capacity. However, one of the benefits is the very fine atomization of the fuel. This very good atomization allows the use of heavier, thick fuels that can’t be satisfactorily atomized with a single fluid injector, particularly with spark ignition.

    Obviously the Ficht single fluid system originally used by the defunct OMC, which I think has evolved into the Etec has got some good qualities as well.
    As a result of the fine atomization, Orbital supplies small engines (certainly around 50 cc and maybe more) for use in US drones. The success of these is driven by the US military requirement to use a single fuel type (I think it is Jet Fuel A) for all forms of transport for logistical reasons. See Orbital's website and various associated articles:

    https://orbitaluav.com/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Corporation

    https://www.australiandefence.com.au...with-big-plans

    Happy reading. I would presume the driveline smoothness and light weight give it an advantage over 4 strokes. I believe some of their flights might be in the order of 16 hours, something that is not yet achievable with electric motors. The engines are far from cheap, the drones returning to base for successive use.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  9. #2844
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Ceci,


    https://orbitaluav.com/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_Corporation

    https://www.australiandefence.com.au...with-big-plans

    Happy reading. I would presume the driveline smoothness and light weight give it an advantage over 4 strokes. I believe some of their flights might be in the order of 16 hours, something that is not yet achievable with electric motors. The engines are far from cheap, the drones returning to base for successive use.
    I guess time has caught up with me and I'm still in the nineteen eighties! so far as Orbital are concerned! - and I guess Ken that you never were involved with this stuff either!?- but there you go, time always catches you out -
    Freedom of speech is important - but
    P.C. has destroyed our right to speak the truth.

  10. #2845
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    Three rotor Wankel

    I guess there's nothing oddball about a triple rotor Wankel, but this one sure sounds good:

    https://youtu.be/nOyOYLZWcBI

  11. #2846
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Ceci,

    The Orbital system is pretty neat, one perceived shortcoming being the need for an air compressor, typically around 1/25th of the engine capacity. However, one of the benefits is the very fine atomization of the fuel. This very good atomization allows the use of heavier, thick fuels that can’t be satisfactorily atomized with a single fluid injector, particularly with spark ignition.

    .
    Thank you all, you are very kind and that is appreciated
    Most researchers refuse to use a compressor (for example: IAPAC by Pierre Duret, etc.).
    The evidence forces its use (example: Yoichi Ishibashi, who in the end incorporated it).
    I am in favor of it and I am convinced of its obligatory use, since it will provide benefits such as an increase in the volumetric performance of the engine.
    These photos are from the University of Pisa (Italy) another attempt without a compressor, which like the rest has not worked
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  12. #2847
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    Isn't the main issue with the Orbital system rpm limitations? For aircraft and car engines that shouldn't be a problem, but for racing engines it is.

    Lohring Miller

  13. #2848
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    Isn't the main issue with the Orbital system rpm limitations? For aircraft and car engines that shouldn't be a problem, but for racing engines it is.

    Lohring Miller
    For aircraft engines I believe that high torque is most important in order for the engine to be able to swing a larger and more efficient prop and also run at it's RPM sweet spot for efficiency (ie if you are wanting to run it at crankshaft RPM). - Although gear reduction is mostly used today for smaller engines to run these more efficient props (engine efficiency might be lost through the transmission) and add weight and cost - A competition engine is another subject of course! Anyway .... horses for courses I guess! - There are some contributors here who are much much more clued up than I am about this - (I'm just here to try and pry them out of the woodwork! ).
    Freedom of speech is important - but
    P.C. has destroyed our right to speak the truth.

  14. #2849
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    Isn't the main issue with the Orbital system rpm limitations? For aircraft and car engines that shouldn't be a problem, but for racing engines it is.

    Lohring Miller
    KTM investigated to solve this possible deficiency, but this investigation focused on only one of the two focuses of work. In the creation of the primary spray tried to expand the RPM range
    Click image for larger version. 

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  15. #2850
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    isn't it best to just banish the exhaust ports to the opposite end of the cylinder, out of harms way?
    48 x 48 x 2
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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