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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2956
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    Here's your dream supercharged two stroke.

    http://strangedevelopment.com/

    Lohring Miller
    Coates has been trying to get a rotary Exhaust valve reliable since the 1980's.
    http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv-system.html



    https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/1...-motorcycling/
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    I reminder distinctly .




    Kinky is using a feather. Perverted is using the whole chicken

  2. #2957
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    And unlike poppet valves, rotary valves in all their configurations leak. However, that may not matter as much as an auxiliary exhaust valve in a two stroke. It only needs to withstand the boost pressure before the piston closes the main exhaust port. Still, I can't imagine that that's a better configuration than the turbo systems modern snow mobile engines use.

    Lohring Miller

  3. #2958
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    ... rotary valves in all their configurations leak. However, that may not matter as much as an auxiliary exhaust valve in a two stroke. It only needs to withstand the boost pressure before the piston closes the main exhaust port. Still, I can't imagine that that's a better configuration than the turbo systems modern snow mobile engines use.
    Those snowmobile turbos only blow into the crankcase and from there on everthing is conventional, with exhaust ports that close after the transfers, so the cylinders cannot be supercharged through the transfers.
    The rotary drum in the Strange Development engine closes the exhaust ducts before the pistons close the transfer ports, so this engine can be supercharged.

  4. #2959
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Those snowmobile turbos only blow into the crankcase and from there on everthing is conventional, with exhaust ports that close after the transfers, so the cylinders cannot be supercharged through the transfers.
    So I guess that's why they still use chambers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    The rotary drum in the Strange Development engine closes the exhaust ducts before the pistons close the transfer ports, so this engine can be supercharged.
    As usual, I have probably missed something - is there a good drawing around somewhere which illustrates this?
    Strokers Galore!

  5. #2960
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    Quote Originally Posted by monkeyfumi View Post
    https://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/...-jet-ignition/

    Frits, or Wobbly, to your knowledge, has this (or competitors similar systems) ever been trialed in a two-stroke engine? Seems it would bring similar benefits as in a four stroke.
    Solutions to the IC engine problems are Not all mechanical ones. If we are interested in "efficient combustion" this idea has Merit.

    A clever Mahle Engineer may have read the following notes?? You Decide! I guess a Modernised 'update' of a 90year old invention could be granted a patent.

    Here are some notes from Robert Harris, aka 'Bob the Computer Guy' from an ancient DIY FI notice board.
    I like his Stream of Consciousness communication style, but it often takes several reads (even some meditation)to see the Gold.

    Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:12:03 -0700
    From: Robert Harris
    Subject: Antiquity


    Goals
    Always drive the mixture towards lean best torque/power
    Remain at light knock as long as possible
    Run as close to unthrottled ( diesel like ) as possible
    Use the highest intake temperature possible to accomplish this within the oxygen budget

    Now we hard dive and snatch a gem from the ancient unenlightened ones.

    Packard - 1930ish - depression days when Packard was big time luxury player

    Reference: Dykes Pg 108, Instruction 13 Pg 140, Instruction 14 DrD - you really have to get one - its the pure motherload!!!

    Fuelizer

    Now those poor old bastards had to make an engine idle with a coin balanced on the head and pull from idle to whatever and be glass smooth at the same time.
    Hard starting and rough cold idle offended the patrons mightily.

    Packard's approach was straight out of the darkside. No choke - no passive anything. By god, they got right down to it and ACTIVELY heated the intake charge from cranking on.
    Got it hot and dry ( fully vaporized ) and actively kept it that way. No pucking around for dem.

    "Purpose: The fuelizer heats the gasoline and the air from the carburetor, so that the mixture enters the cylinder as a dry gas rather than a combination of
    air and liquid particles."

    What they did was shunt some intake charge after the carb into a small combustion chamber, light it with a spark and vent the hot exhaust straight back into the intake charge. And since the chamber was in direct contact and part of the intake manifold, virtually all of this heat went into the charge.
    Get right to it and get it done.

    Yikes. But wait - worst case was about 3% of the fuel used. (5% for Mahle) So how much do you waste cold "choked" start, idle, warmup, high vacuum light cruise ??
    Because this was thru a tiny passage, as the flow increased, less was diverted thru the shunt as the rpm, load, temperature increased and was cut off at about 30 mph.
    Self adjusting. Plug was more like a jet engine ignitor than a sparking plug. And since it was venting back into the charge via "long" tiny ports, the flame was quenched - leaving nothing but energy in the form of heat.

    So what does this buy us? Start with pre-burning a small amount of fuel and using that to heat the air and vaporize the fuel downstream. No liquid gasoline combustion.
    Straight homogeneous pre-mixed gas. Very smooth, very efficient, almost perfect combustion that left no deposits from crap gas.

    The exhaust was jetted thru tiny passages that killed the flame so that only hot gas below the ignition temperature of the main charge entered the charge.

    Had a sight glass to optimize the color - thus efficiency of the combustion -does ccd optics or colortune for the fuelizor click on anything?

    Now we know that we want the highest temperature charge possible under less than wot because that means we minimize the pumping and throttling loss's.
    Anyone care to guess how much this "superheating" of the air did for reducing those losses at the time they are the greatest. Plus no low temperature oil dilution, no pinging carbon buildup. Since it worked on a very high end luxury car, might give us a clue that everything else might have been a lessor compromise.

    What does this give us? How about a fuel efficient way of ACTIVELY changing the charge temperature to great benefit without screwing up high demand operations?

    Fuel injection provides dry air - right? So, unlike Packard, we run dry air into the fuelizor and "inject" a desired amount of fuel to get the charge air heating we want. Now within reason we can computer control the amount of charge heating needed to optimize main combustion. And we can do what they couldn't and stratified charge is attempting.

    Run the fuelizor rich. Controlled Pig rich. The excess fuel is exhausted into the intake manifold not as gasoline, but CH4, CO and H2. Nice high energy gaseous fuels that really help meet our goal of a premixed gas thru most of the power band. And any remaining liquid is boiled, vaporized and greatly refining into much smaller chain components.
    The heat is not wasted either - remember pumping losses. And for the knock o phobic - twice the amount of fuel consumed is released as CO2 ( definitely changes knock ) and H2O - water injection - to the tune of about twice the amount of water formed as gasoline consumed - with the kicker that its as steam - expanded ~ 1800 times liquid water - hot dry superheated steam. And what effect might that have on density downstream?

    A touch of Glassman again. Peak Flame temperature is a product of three things only. The total atomic mass of all the components, the atomic distribution ratio of the components C H O N, and the total energy present and released ( fuel chemical ) during combustion. It's massively insensitive to pressure - that only changes the burn rate - not the temperature.
    Virtually all of the heat consumed by the fuelizor is transferred to the intake charge which is then recovered at combustion. This implies that we recover in combustion virtually all of the heat "wasted" to condition the intake charge.
    Plus, we waste much less energy on pumping losses. And we get much better faster efficient combustion when its most needed as a bonus.

    GM tried unsuccessfully during the manufactured gas crisis of the seventies to twice burn the charge by intaking the exhaust of one cylinder, mix with same air and fuel and reburn. Efficiency went way up, but power bit the big one. History repeats 40 years after the Packard, but not done right. So we have major precedent for what I'm thinking.

    Since flame speed is irrelevant - only quantity of gas, heat and desirable end products is, this opens Dave W's cherished back door. Suppose we introduced some gasocrap to the fuelizor. It would get converted to a much more useful fuel and not waste anything. Knock quality is irrelevant - we are not compressing it - just burning it, converting it to a higher quality fuel and recovering virtually all its energy. Remember virtually all of the waste heat is going into the air charge.

    To further weird the wicked, you might want to check out the efficiency of conversion of chemical energy to work of an external combustion engine such as the Stirling.
    Just might want to increase the percentage of fuel a tad over what Packard was using - specially since we can control it. (WOW! Mahle at 5%)
    And a look at catalytic convertor material might allow us to increase the efficiency and heat even more.

    The thought of greatly reduced pumping losses, refining crap liquid fuel into high quality gaseous fuel, nicely improved thermal and combustion efficiency in a region where it is not necessary to sacrifice efficiency to maximize and doing it with ancient technology ought to have your head spinning and the thought of continuously variable effective VE and compression ratio without moving some huge mass of metal around. And since the high temperature chargewill be much faster burning, throw in better pressure to mechanical energy conversion than normal - about the same as increasing the expansion ratio - without the complications.
    And I only ran across this evening on browsing for something else. Welcome to my nightmare.


    Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 21:43:20 -0700
    From: Robert Harris
    Subject: Antiquity - after thought.


    Do not confuse the fuelizer with EGR.
    EGR displaces some of the intake charge with residual exhaust, thus reducing the amount of oxygen and increasing the amount of combustion products in the
    total charge prior to combustion

    Fuelizer - precombusts part of the charge - but has no change on the total oxygen present in the charge nor the total combustion product from the charge.
    All it is doing is pre-burning part of the charge and the remaining part of the charge will have approximately the same ratio of fuel to air as the total initial charge.

    This is not to down EGR - I love the stuff - but to make sure you understand the difference.

    The Fuelizer's unburned fuel is not discarded, but is available in a higher quality form for the remaining main charge - thus keeping close to the original mixture balance.

    Got to do some more reading and writing - but major problem of rich combustion is that there is insufficient time for some of the products to release their energy in a timely fashion for conversion to pressure, but since we have much longer, that loss in efficiency of rich PARTIAL burn is not a problem.

    This implies that the main charge will burn in the cylinder with little degradation over a normal charge, and will in many regions burn faster and better.


    Phew! Cheers, Daryl.

  6. #2961
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    I remember reading of Smokey Yunick's hot vapor engine;
    https://www.legendarycollectorcars.c...clusive-video/
    Again is heating the intake to allow better combustion..

  7. #2962
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    Quote Originally Posted by 190mech View Post
    I remember reading of Smokey Yunick's hot vapor engine;
    https://www.legendarycollectorcars.c...clusive-video/
    Again is heating the intake to allow better combustion..
    Yes Smokey is a Hero of mine! Practical & effective solutions to all sorts of problems..especially poorly written "Rules".

    Cheers, Daryl.

  8. #2963
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frits Overmars View Post
    Those snowmobile turbos only blow into the crankcase and from there on everthing is conventional, with exhaust ports that close after the transfers, so the cylinders cannot be supercharged through the transfers.
    The rotary drum in the Strange Development engine closes the exhaust ducts before the pistons close the transfer ports, so this engine can be supercharged.
    I disagree. The turbo provides back pressure and the compressor raises the intake pressure. This runs the cycle as a whole at a higher pressure making more power. Some engines have gotten really serious with this and can make 800 hp with nitrous.

    Lohring Miller

    Click image for larger version. 

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  9. #2964
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    I disagree. The turbo provides back pressure and the compressor raises the intake pressure. This runs the cycle as a whole at a higher pressure making more power. Some engines have gotten really serious with this and can make 800 hp with nitrous.

    Lohring Miller
    Lohring, that photo is impressive but it also clearly illustrates the ridiculous amount of space being taken up by the chambers on a large capacity (ie cylinder capacity) two stroke! (maybe for better power of course, but can you imagine if they were not siamesed!). - ok certainly good for competition snowmobiles - not for bikes being used daily on the roads! - got to find a more compact and pollution free solution for them in order to realize the two stroke's potential and prolong it's time on this earth! ........ and it's a race between mankind and the two stroke (as to which will disappear first!).
    Strokers Galore!

  10. #2965
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    Wow, just so much to comment on. Remember Dazza, that the 418, FJ thru to EJ grey engines (Holdens for those who aren’t aware of an Oz mfg GM owned car we had in Oz until GM killed it a couple of years ago) had that bimetallic flap in the exhaust that directed the hot exhaust to the underside of the closely bolted inlet manifold directly under the wonderful Stromberg carb.

    Then, we had a period of wonderful gizmos that created a vortex in the fuel/air mix downstream of the carb that gave the usual 20% fuel savings.

    I guess every country has had their share of wonderful devices. A few years ago were the HHO devices that turned water into energy. Gone.

    I must be getting old.

    One that I do hold a sort of hope for (other than some sort of smart 2 stroke) is the bottoming cycle, where essentially the waste heat is utilized. Remember, maybe a bit old now, is that 30% goes to power, 30% goes to coolant, 30% goes to exh and the remaining 10% to wherever. The bottoming cycle, as I remember it, utilized the higher grade of energy in the exhaust, a simple example could be to use an exhaust turbine to input to the output shaft.

    Hydrogen. Dunno, just haven’t come to grips with the efficiency of production, the storage and the leakage (at molecular level).

    As they say, “watch this space”…
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  11. #2966
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Wow, just so much to comment on. Remember Dazza, that the 418, FJ thru to EJ grey engines (Holdens for those who aren’t aware of an Oz mfg GM owned car we had in Oz until GM killed it a couple of years ago) had that bimetallic flap in the exhaust that directed the hot exhaust to the underside of the closely bolted inlet manifold directly under the wonderful Stromberg carb.

    Then, we had a period of wonderful gizmos that created a vortex in the fuel/air mix downstream of the carb that gave the usual 20% fuel savings.

    I guess every country has had their share of wonderful devices. A few years ago were the HHO devices that turned water into energy. Gone.

    I must be getting old.

    One that I do hold a sort of hope for (other than some sort of smart 2 stroke) is the bottoming cycle, where essentially the waste heat is utilized. Remember, maybe a bit old now, is that 30% goes to power, 30% goes to coolant, 30% goes to exh and the remaining 10% to wherever. The bottoming cycle, as I remember it, utilized the higher grade of energy in the exhaust, a simple example could be to use an exhaust turbine to input to the output shaft.

    Hydrogen. Dunno, just haven’t come to grips with the efficiency of production, the storage and the leakage (at molecular level).

    As they say, “watch this space”…
    How could you not mention the energy polarizer? the magnetic device that "aligned the fuel molecules" or something ( and which also pretty much destroyed Brocks relationship with Holden)
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  12. #2967
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Solutions to the IC engine problems are Not all mechanical ones. If we are interested in "efficient combustion" this idea has Merit.

    A clever Mahle Engineer may have read the following notes?? You Decide! I guess a Modernised 'update' of a 90year old invention could be granted a patent.

    Here are some notes from Robert Harris, aka 'Bob the Computer Guy' from an ancient DIY FI notice board.
    I like his Stream of Consciousness communication style, but it often takes several reads (even some meditation)to see the Gold ..............
    Daryl, got time to sit down to read quickly through that - (I'm sure that both Mazda and Mahle have studied lots of stuff from the past ..... carefully!).
    Very interesting stuff - I do remember reading about it before somewhere, but only glanced through it - and I've done that again ! - So next time I am going to sit and read it all again.
    Just goes to show that we need to start going through all the "tailings" again and try to make use of the knowledge from the past by refining it!
    - a lot can be learnt from the past!
    Strokers Galore!

  13. #2968
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    How could you not mention the energy polarizer? the magnetic device that "aligned the fuel molecules" or something ( and which also pretty much destroyed Brocks relationship with Holden)
    Would be too embarrassed...….

    On another note: https://motorbikewriter.com/aussie-2...acts-investor/ Watch this space.....
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  14. #2969
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post

    .......... Then, we had a period of wonderful gizmos that created a vortex in the fuel/air mix downstream of the carb that gave the usual 20% fuel savings.

    I guess every country has had their share of wonderful devices. A few years ago were the HHO devices that turned water into energy. Gone.

    I must be getting old.

    One that I do hold a sort of hope for (other than some sort of smart 2 stroke) is the bottoming cycle, where essentially the waste heat is utilized .................... As they say, “watch this space”…
    Yes Ken,
    All this stuff is still there somewhere, but if the results of those who worked hard to find improvements don't also improve the cashflow to the coffers of the rich and powerful, then it will be buried and forgotten, (rightly or wrongly).
    Strokers Galore!

  15. #2970
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    Wow, just so much to comment on. Remember Dazza, that the 418, FJ thru to EJ grey engines (Holdens for those who aren’t aware of an Oz mfg GM owned car we had in Oz until GM killed it a couple of years ago) had that bimetallic flap in the exhaust that directed the hot exhaust to the underside of the closely bolted inlet manifold directly under the wonderful Stromberg carb. Even the Model A had direct manifold heating, 'Hot box'. What What Packard did (and Mahle is redoing) was changing & improving the nature of the fuel, for operational & combustion efficiency from pre-start cranking and all part throttle use. As Bob said "everything else might have been a lessor compromise"

    Then, we had a period of wonderful gizmos that created a vortex in the fuel/air mix downstream of the carb that gave the usual 20% fuel savings.
    This was the purpose of the turbocharger in Smokey's 'Hot Vapour engine' Heat and agitate the mixture and maintain a +ve intake pressure, to minimise 'pumping losses'

    I guess every country has had their share of wonderful devices. A few years ago were the HHO devices that turned water into energy. Gone.
    Despite authenticated, observed demonstrations that frequency modulation can facilitate the cracking of H2O to 4xH & O2 the conventionally accepted process of electrolysis is considered the only 'scientific' way to achieve this and is therefore inefficient (re: Energy in vs Energy out).

    I must be getting old. You're not Robinson Crusoe there!

    One that I do hold a sort of hope for (other than some sort of smart 2 stroke) is the bottoming cycle, where essentially the waste heat is utilized. Remember, maybe a bit old now, is that 30% goes to power, 30% goes to coolant, 30% goes to exh and the remaining 10% to wherever. The bottoming cycle, as I remember it, utilized the higher grade of energy in the exhaust, a simple example could be to use an exhaust turbine to input to the output shaft.
    The Adiabatic process does work see the 376-mpg-opel
    https://www.hemmings.com/stories/200...opel-uncovered

    Hydrogen. Dunno, just haven’t come to grips with the efficiency of production, the storage and the leakage (at molecular level). Liquid storage reduces that, but raises it's own practical issues. Need to research it more in ICE applications.

    As they say, “watch this space"…
    Looking forward to the Clean 2-Stroke Thread.

    Cheers, Daryl

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