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Thread: Oddball engines and prototypes

  1. #2686
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    Quote Originally Posted by ken seeber View Post
    IÂ’ve been thinking about smoke lately and think that it is not something inherent in the 2 stroke engine, but just the way it passes thru the engine.

    My thoughts are that fully combusted oil burns cleanly The key reasoning to this was an observation at Orbital many years ago. This was based on the smoke generation, evident in the exhaust, of the original “rotary” style Orbital engine. What we did to understand this a bit better was to feed raw oil into the intake of a 4 cyl carbureted engine we also had on test at the time. No smoke.

    Also, do we see smoke from a racing 2 stroke under full power down a straight. No. This oneÂ’s a bit subjective, however we do see clouds of smoke when a 2 stroke bike or kart starts up.

    My conclusion is that the smoke we see is due to oil being not fully combusted, mainly as a result of short circuiting out the exhaust (and not following the scavenging path) and then being only partially oxidized by the heat of the exhaust. IÂ’m sure everyone at some stage has poured oil onto an open fire and watched & smelt the smoke.

    So, the trick is than to ensure that no oil can readily short circuit out the exhaust. One thing we did at Orbital on the 3 cyl DI 2 stroke auto engine was to incorporate a crankcase drain system. This essentially was a small check valve at the bottom of each crankcase, this feeding through a small passage into the intake (upstream of the reed valve) of the adjacent “leading” cylinder. I guess this had some capacitance such that any accumulated drained oil took a little while to get into the system. Net result was very little or no smoke or even smell.
    .
    Yes, visible smoke is where the 'political' problem really exists.

    Four stroke engines also burn oil. (Mains HV Electrical Transformers can too!)
    And Nobody seems to account for the large volume of used, contaminated sump oil that must be dealt with.
    (Disposed of, ideally cleaned and recycled, but not guaranteed).

    Two stroke snow mobiles, jet skis and outboards can meet the highest applicable HC exhaust standards.
    One of their tricks is not to provide oil to the engine during starting and idling, only under load.
    There is a lot of oil left on bearings and all metal parts in the case because the fuel evaporates on the hot surfaces, the oil doesn't.
    The dry-sump/case extractor is a good idea.
    Direct oil delivery to the bearings is the best idea. Scott was doing it in the 1920's. Came and went on Japanese bikes 60's & 70's.

    Now that Neil has perfected 2 Stroke EFI we need to set him to work on ELubeI (c)2019 - pat pending..
    Perhaps using bearing and piston ring temperatures as the trigger criteria.

    Cheers, Daryl.

  2. #2687
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    At Orbital, I heard 2 interesting things from the Mercury guys (talking 25 years ago though), this being prior to the intro of the Optimax range of engines.

    1. Apparently in Rouen in France on the Seine River, there is an annual 24 hour speedboat race. The Merc guys, to keep the engines alive, would run 8:1 fuel oil mix. To prevent oiling up on starting, they filled the carb bowls with straight fuel. Dunno if there was ever smoke, probably hard to see with all the spray.

    2. As with all manufacturers, they always have odds and ends left over, perhaps waiting for some good destructive tests. How long would an engine last if left idling with no oil in the fuel? Apparently 200 hours plus.
    "Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm.”

  3. #2688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Yes, visible smoke is where the 'political' problem really exist ..............................

    Now that Neil has perfected 2 Stroke EFI we need to set him to work on ELubeI (c)2019 - pat pending..
    Perhaps using bearing and piston ring temperatures as the trigger criteria.

    Cheers, Daryl.
    Yes Daryl, you hit the nail in that regard !- we haven't been taking seriously the fact that this is a "seen to be world" and however silly or unimportant that may sound, it's what governs us in every way, (including the future of the two stroke engine!) - reason is secondary! ............ but we can't deny that is how it is and no amount of talk will bring the two stroke back to the top!

    A good example of this happening is the retirement of the steam engine- all the old "steamies" moaned and declared that if it wasn't driven by steam then it would fail! - they kept on doing that till they keeled over!
    Hope we aren't going to do that - maybe we should try and get our heads together and try and sort the situation (Sez I )

    I'm sure we all have ideas but the problem is that we don't like to share them because they are either untried or incomplete - I guess!

    ELubeI ..... ?
    Strokers Galore!

  4. #2689
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDun View Post
    ELubeI ..... ?
    Electronically controlled Lub(e)rication Injection

    That's the Hard part done, a Catchy Trade Mark (itable) name.

    Now, just need a little 'technology' to realize the concept.

    And Seeking Qualified Investors!!!

    Cheers, Daryl.

  5. #2690
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Now, just need a little 'technology' to realize the concept.

    Perhaps using bearing and piston ring temperatures as the trigger criteria.
    How about using these? Too expensive?
    https://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/a...5&d=1572390569

    One in the A transfer looking at the exhaust side ring(s)
    One at the bottom of the crankcase looking at the Bigend around BDC.
    Maybe incorporate this in the housing for the Lube Scavenge Valve (LSV) or

    ElubeES. Evacuation System sounds better than scavenge or sphincter!!
    Need to run this past the Marketing Committee and the customer focus group!:


    Arduino Controller by TZ350... 'Cos he obviously has plenty of free time.

    Cheers, Daryl.
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  6. #2691
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    Quote Originally Posted by WilDun View Post
    A good example of this happening is the retirement of the steam engine- all the old "steamies" moaned and declared that if it wasn't driven by steam then it would fail! - they kept on doing that till they keeled over!
    99% of Bulk Electricity generation is driven by STEAM.... Either by Coal (Bad.. Co2 etc) or Nuclear reaction (Good..clean)
    Except in Australia, where Coal is Good or Bad... but nice, clean, nuclear energy is the anti Christ.

    Don't get me started on Aussie Diesel powered Submarines!!

    Cheers, Daryl.

  7. #2692
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    If we look at 2S as the only existing form of existence, we are burying him.
    We deny the fact that since its invention has changed a lot (1ºexternal to internal pumping, 2º transfer with deflector to without it, 3º progress in the escape). Can't there be more changes?

  8. #2693
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    99% of Bulk Electricity generation is driven by STEAM.... Either by Coal (Bad.. Co2 etc) or Nuclear reaction (Good..clean)
    Except in Australia, where Coal is Good or Bad... but nice, clean, nuclear energy is the anti Christ.

    Don't get me started on Aussie Diesel powered Submarines!!

    Cheers, Daryl.
    I can see why the aussies might consider Nukes okay
    Given you let the old mother country explode them willy nilly them on your place.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marali...Waste_Cover-up
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...s_at_Maralinga
    We also run Geothermal power like the icelanders do using the earths steam.
    I thougt a lot of the new assue power was coal gas methane running through litlu modded diesek cat gens set above the coal feils two birds one stone as it degassed the coal proir to mining, to make it safer.

  9. #2694
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    99% of Bulk Electricity generation is driven by STEAM.... Either by Coal (Bad.. Co2 etc) or Nuclear reaction (Good..clean)
    Except in Australia, where Coal is Good or Bad...
    Yes true, but not often used in piston engined motorcycles or cars!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    but nice, clean, nuclear energy is the anti Christ.
    Yes, must certainly is - and only clean, so long as a country's infrastrcture is intact and supplied with huge amounts of cash to keep it that way!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pursang View Post
    Don't get me started on Aussie Diesel powered Submarines!

    Cheers, Daryl.
    Strokers Galore!

  10. #2695
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    Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is mostly generated from clean sources and natural gas. On a flight across the US, I was surprised to see wind farms every time I looked out the window. Even without the clean power arguments, it's hard to argue against a car with twice (or more) peak power than my previous gasoline powered car that costs $100 a month less to run. No oil changes or other maintenance for 18,000 miles. I did need to rotate the tires and add window washer fluid, though.

    Lohring Miller

  11. #2696
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    Quote Originally Posted by lohring View Post
    Where I live in the Pacific Northwest, electricity is mostly generated from clean sources and natural gas. On a flight across the US, I was surprised to see wind farms every time I looked out the window. Even without the clean power arguments, it's hard to argue against a car with twice (or more) peak power than my previous gasoline powered car that costs $100 a month less to run. No oil changes or other maintenance for 18,000 miles. I did need to rotate the tires and add window washer fluid, though.

    Lohring Miller
    I would not disagree with any of that of course - however, the problem of weight and replacement cost for batteries still does exist - weight not so important in road vehicles, but important! ..... Most people will say, better to sell it before it gives up! - but really that is just passing the buck and does not alter the fact that the clapped out batteries will have to be disposed of eventually and could create as much (or even more of a hazard than plastic is today)
    Yes, I agree that electricity is really the best answer for the moment and probably will be the main basis for something better later on (ie in the generation department) - just a few things to be finalised and accepted (the diehards won't accept that of course) but we'll all have to conform eventually, so best to do that now and get on with it!
    Solar electricity? - fine too, (best if you live in a sunny climate with brown grass or desert sand! - (Think I'd go for green grass and rain) - probably what you are used to as well, Lohring!).
    Strokers Galore!

  12. #2697
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post

    I thought a lot of the new aussie power was coal gas methane running through litlu modded diesel cat gens set above the coal fields two birds one stone as it degassed the coal prior to mining, to make it safer.
    Sounds Wonderful! It's a Great idea!.... but we can't afford our own coal seam gas. We have, like, a 100 year contract to deliver it to the Chinese for SFA (about 10% of our local price)
    The only power generation at gas field plants is to to power the wells and the pumps that pipe the gas to the coast.

    Husa, Glad you're still here to participate.

    Cheers Daryl.

  13. #2698
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    Ok Daryl, - need to get going on your ElubI etc (if you still love the 2 stroke!) - time and opportunity for it's rescue are disappearing fast - me? ......... Of course, I have worked out a perfect solution, but the interface between my brain and hands seems to have malfunctioned!

    BTW - NZ is giving away (ie free)10,000 litres of nice clear water with each litre of milk it sells overseas to any enterprising profiteer! - unfortunately, due to our cashflow problems, they may have to provide their own tankers! ..... - what is the matter with us "Down Under" people?
    Strokers Galore!

  14. #2699
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    Something to keep Oddball alive.

    This idea has a lot of merit for a 'modern' Two Stroke engine.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxqyfB83tSo

    Lovely, turbine smooth, mechanical action, great transfer efficiency at low speeds.

    Just needs decent carburation or FI, an exhaust system and water cooling (and, maybe, a piston ring at the combustion end).


    Crankless (swish plate) motors were a favorite of P E Irving.

    Cheers, Daryl

  15. #2700
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    Pretty sure you've got the wrong Phil there. Irving was the pragmatist, Phil Vincent was the inventor and dreamer.
    PCV has the patents on swashplate engines. I think there's a good writeup in LJK Setright's book "Some Unusual Engines" of the lines Phil Vincent was working on.

    I seem to remember that the engine for the Vincent airborne lifeboat was supposed to be a swashplate. Irving developed a 2 stroke for it - just in case - which was the unit eventually used.

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