Road vs rail transport

[Moi]

Bit to simplistic....

argument isn't rail without road, or road without rail....
argument should be how to best use both....

and, as an island nation with Hamilton the only major city without a port what about shipping....

I mean....
trucking fuel to New Plymouth from the East coast.....

really....?

I believe the "market place knows best" ideology would find what you suggest to be repugnant...

however, there are many who would see the merit in what you are suggesting and would support a mature discussion at governmental level...

[caspernz]

Road maintenance costs, RUC is pretty up there but it isn't reflective of the damage per km done by the differently weighted vehicle types. Though perhaps it is phrased wrong as it's not the govt per say, but the motorists. Then again, maybe the motorists pay the full share of age/weather/etc related road damages and truckies just pay for the damage they cause...

Yeah I find it tricky to find unbiased costings for the above mentioned. If say the RTF uses selective elements to claim RUCs are too high in NZ, the numbers will support that assertion but it's not the full picture. Many aspects of road transport are simply out of necessity, but on the whole I reckon too much bulk freight is moved too cheaply.

Bit to simplistic....

argument isn't rail without road, or road without rail....
argument should be how to best use both....

and, as an island nation with Hamilton the only major city without a port what about shipping....

I mean....
trucking fuel to New Plymouth from the East coast.....

really....?

Yeah trucking fuel into New Ply took a few of us by surprise when this change came up. Let's clarify though, diesel still comes into New Ply port via coastal carrier, it's only motor spirit that is trucked in. Still, running petrol from Aucks or Welly into the Naki just seems wrong. Lots of factors behind it though, when we were told the story it sort of made sense. And FYI, fuel would only come from Napier when the pressure is on elsewhere.

Coastal shipping gradually disappeared after transport deregulation didn't it? Almost supports my thoughts that trucking is too cheap...why else would we have a driver shortage?

Investment in rail, partial regulation and setting minimum rates for road transport would be the starting point for any discussion.

[R650R]

Easy, logistical rework. Cloud based freight allocations on regularly scheduled and always on time trains.

Double handling for intraNZ goods can be fixed with standard freight pallets or any other number of engineering solutions.

The govt should be subsiding rail, cos it's damn sure subsidising trucking. Rail has far higher potential for economies of scale than trucking too.

"Regular schedules" *sniggers* LOL I have mates that unload a timber train that is supposed to run a regular schedule... note the word supposed too.... like anything things will break down or run late, imagine the back log when a critical rail junction is blocked by breakdown or derailment if heaps more stuff was on rail...
Rail has always had the biggest corporate welfare of all, being govt funded from the start, then sold to private enterprise for pennies on the dollar, then they got the rail network sold to them for $1 and it still doesn't work for them...

BTW there already are many 'standard' size options to help move freight efficiently, getting customers to use them effectively is another story altogether. Also such systems usually involve ownership/leasing of a proprietary system/device hence why so many businesses use disposable/free odd size pallets and stuff or just loose packaged.

Economies of scale works when you have quick turnarounds and cover large distances. NZ is quite a small country as far as rail is concerned not like a continental crossing of USA etc...

[bogan]

"Regular schedules" *sniggers* LOL I have mates that unload a timber train that is supposed to run a regular schedule... note the word supposed too.... like anything things will break down or run late, imagine the back log when a critical rail junction is blocked by breakdown or derailment if heaps more stuff was on rail...
Rail has always had the biggest corporate welfare of all, being govt funded from the start, then sold to private enterprise for pennies on the dollar, then they got the rail network sold to them for $1 and it still doesn't work for them...

BTW there already are many 'standard' size options to help move freight efficiently, getting customers to use them effectively is another story altogether. Also such systems usually involve ownership/leasing of a proprietary system/device hence why so many businesses use disposable/free odd size pallets and stuff or just loose packaged.

Economies of scale works when you have quick turnarounds and cover large distances. NZ is quite a small country as far as rail is concerned not like a continental crossing of USA etc...

Were you asking how things could work, or how they 'work' at the moment? The post I replied to suggested the former, but your response has been all about the later.

[R650R]

Curious to hear where you got the idea government is subsidising trucking? I've found it quite difficult to find clear, unbiased info to help form a current opinion on the who is subsidising who topic.

It's been a while since I was at school, and maybe it's a bit of a European idea, but I recall that railways were never intended as a pure money making entity

Even if a large amount of trucks were removed from the roads, they would still need a fair bit of maintainance, who pays then???

Railways have been around since the horse and cart days, back then they were orders of magnitude more efficient as an option. Why if rail was/is so better were there such heavy regulation against trucks in the early days to protect rail???
One only has to look at UK and USA where they have vast well established rail networks to see that trucks are still a vital part of transport infrastructure.

[R650R]

Bit to simplistic....

argument isn't rail without road, or road without rail....
argument should be how to best use both....

Well it has to be and that's what the toy trainset club wants, its either them or the trucks, the country is not big enough for both of them they say.
This thread is about derailing the illusion that a massive shift (at whose expense?) to rail will fix our crowded poorly built roads...
Everyone likes boats despite that dirty bunker fuel they burn so their not even in the picture here. Hamilton is now a suburb of Auckland and is only 1hr 30min away from aucks and TGA.

[tri boy]

Where does light rail exist in New Zealand?

Yeah sorry bout that.
It's only in the planning stage.
My bad

[Moi]

...It's only in the planning stage...

Who and where?

[TheDemonLord]

"Regular schedules" *sniggers* LOL I have mates that unload a timber train that is supposed to run a regular schedule... note the word supposed too.... like anything things will break down or run late, imagine the back log when a critical rail junction is blocked by breakdown or derailment if heaps more stuff was on rail...
Rail has always had the biggest corporate welfare of all, being govt funded from the start, then sold to private enterprise for pennies on the dollar, then they got the rail network sold to them for $1 and it still doesn't work for them...

BTW there already are many 'standard' size options to help move freight efficiently, getting customers to use them effectively is another story altogether. Also such systems usually involve ownership/leasing of a proprietary system/device hence why so many businesses use disposable/free odd size pallets and stuff or just loose packaged.

Economies of scale works when you have quick turnarounds and cover large distances. NZ is quite a small country as far as rail is concerned not like a continental crossing of USA etc...

- Go to Europe
- See how Rail works when not run by Fuckwits
- Realise that Rail can transport both Freight AND People cross country more efficiently than roads

Not saying that Trucking is bad, or they damage the roads or anything - Rail in this country is simply underutilised to the point of almost irrelevance

[carburator]

Easy, logistical rework. Cloud based freight allocations on regularly scheduled and always on time trains.

Double handling for intraNZ goods can be fixed with standard freight pallets or any other number of engineering solutions.

Land prices is a non issue if the logistics are reworked.

The govt should be subsiding rail, cos it's damn sure subsidising trucking. Rail has far higher potential for economies of scale than trucking too.

FUCK OFF, the government subsiding trucking! what the fuck are you smoking?
I pay COF
I pay REGO and not just one unit but each trailer.
I pay RUC and not just one unit but each trailer.
I pay tax at the pump
I pay fee's for over size/over length loads
I then get some cunt called IRD wanting there share of the booty..

So yea mate, wheres my fucking hand out from the government..

[bogan]

FUCK OFF, the government subsiding trucking! what the fuck are you smoking?
I pay COF
I pay REGO and not just one unit but each trailer.
I pay RUC and not just one unit but each trailer.
I pay tax at the pump
I pay fee's for over size/over length loads
I then get some cunt called IRD wanting there share of the booty..

So yea mate, wheres my fucking hand out from the government..

I pay excise tax (petrol's RUC) for my 200kg bike, roughly $30-50 per 1000km, how much do you pay for your 20,000kg truck and 20,000kg trailer? is it a 6 grand RUC bill?

[R650R]

Not saying that Trucking is bad, or they damage the roads or anything - Rail in this country is simply underutilised to the point of almost irrelevance

It would be interesting to see a proper cost/benefit analysis of say IF....

Rail was subsidised and actively promoted to make it work. Business were given tax breaks/easy resource consents for extra storage costs of infrequent bulk delivery vs small deliveries often.

And then compare what benefit that money would have injected into the road network for everyone...

A transport manager I spoke with awhile back who is a heavy rail user alongside own trucks said there was very little difference between a container on truck from Akld to Wgtn, the main factor influencing decision was time.
Other random google searches revealed rail is on average only 25% cheaper than road transport and that prob doesn't include the local pickup and delivery at either end.

On a side note relating to the global warming, carbon tax scam, if rail were much better surely the govt would push that ....

BTW I loved the high speed rail network in UK and used it a lot along with the Tube. But will our terrain and economy every sustain that? I think our gauge is too narrow for fast trains???

[BMWST?]

No offence taken at other peoples lack of education... Said ages ago would start this thread after one of the other threads raised it as side issue.
I'm really interested if the trainspotters can substantiate their desire for all non perishable goods to travel by rail with a solid argument of how it would be feasible in our modern society and affordable???

I'm all for the govt subsidising rail too as it would create jobs and release some pressure on the transport industry. But I don't think it is workable for our modern society with regards to the storage and land costs issues.

As for the govt making money, the govt measures its success on our GDP and the yearly balance sheet. If rail made our roads safer and less congested and raised our environmental standing while at the same time keeping us competitive in getting our export goods to international markets surely the govt would chase that??? We'd import less diesel fuel according to the greens and that would further benefit our GDP/borrowing etc....
So if the govt isn't really interested in rail what does that tell you... If private enterprise isn't seriously interested in fronting their own money into it what does that tell you???

because you dont have to build your own roads.Be a different kettle of fish if you guys had the road network to build and maintain.Do you know how much a kilometre of road costs to build to support 40 or 50 ton trucks.If you had to actually fund that...Rail will be the solution again

[R650R]

I pay excise tax (petrol's RUC) for my 200kg bike, roughly $30-50 per 1000km, how much do you pay for your 20,000kg truck and 20,000kg trailer? is it a 6 grand RUC bill?

RUC is a seperate bill from fuel tax and its bought in advance of use. You now also pay for your maximum available capacity wether you've got it on or not. That's why poor tradies are getting screwed on their diesel utes and vans now...

[bogan]

Rail was subsidised and actively promoted to make it work. Business were given tax breaks/easy resource consents for extra storage costs of infrequent bulk delivery vs small deliveries often.

The two are at least partially exclusive, to make it work, it would need to be frequent; and with today's logistical capabilities there is no reason why it couldn't. The one advantage trucks have over rail is flexibility, pickup straight from source, and deliver straight to destination; special runs if needed. Proper planning can overcome both of these things, however the turkeys running NZ rail (unless much has changed in the last decade) are alas, not up to the task; which considering the changes to way freight would be handled is a massive task.