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Thread: Road vs rail transport

  1. #1
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    Road vs rail transport

    This thread is to explore the reasons why one mode is better or preferred over the other. It is not about you being cut off by a big truck or being kept awake by rail shunting yards, or being jealous that an ethnic minority (possibly with criminal backgrounds) without a tertiary education earns more money than you do. There is a lot of nostalgia around rail but this thread will explain why modern road transport takes so much freight outside of certain bulk cargoes which make sense on rail, eg coal, milk timber etc…

    1) Delivery time: So many items these days are ordered at the last minute or part of a just-in-time manufacturing process. This is dictated by businesses and you the consumer. I’m sure people here will have shopped online and understand that if they purchase a needed item before 2-4pm they can have it delivered the next morning/day. The list is endless of things that fall into this category from perishable/fresh foodstuffs to parts your mechanic needs so you can have your bike/car back in time for weekend.
    Often in road transport the truck that is picking up an item can direct deliver it. This reduces the need for double handling which exposes fragile items to more chance of damage, eg bike fairings or delicately engineered structures.

    2) Accountability: Following on from the above with items passing through less hands it reduces the chance of theft or loss and if something does get overlanded at wrong depot usually with a couple of phone calls a dispatcher can prompt minds into where something went and recover item. The loaders and driver (often the same person) will have a personal sense of pride and work ethic in not damaging stuff.

    3) Land prices: Rail needs lots land for shunting yards and for storing freight before delivery. Rail really works for customers ordering large quantities of stuff, so those customers must have warehousing space of their own to store stuff. Your local Pak n Save is a good example, looks like a lot of food on those racks but its only 3-4 days worth of sales. Imagine how much extra space would be needed if say all their non perishable stuff came by train once every couple of weeks. Imagine all the places you shop at having to have premises at least twice the size they do now to store goods.

    4) Traffic: People are already moaning about courier drivers double parking, running red lights etc. Just imagine a heap of extra metro trucks running around town. Many deliveries to retail and industrial premises are often done direct early in the morning before Joe Bloggs commuter hits the streets. Most railway lines seem to cut most cities in half creating disruption too.
    So are you the consumer willing to pay more to get your goods delivered slower? Are you the new entrepreneur willing to risk your new product getting to the new client late or damaged? Are you all willing to pay more in general for all goods as the increased costs get passed on? Will the monopoly provider charge fair prices if it has no competition? If you’re so concerned about environment, congestion and road maintainance will you park the car for next holiday and travel by bus or trail instead? Will you ask your online retailers to ship your product by rail instead of road?
    Rail has its place for certain freight items but it is YOU the consumer/retailer/manufacturer that is driving road transport demand.
    Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei

  2. #2
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    My thinking...

    RUC's. how many $$ does the government get from the road transport industry. Why would they invest in something that will eat into their profit from RUC's.
    Also road freight is more efficient for the reasons you've already covered.

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    I've always found the saying, 'handle like it's on rails' to be a bit of a misnomer for motorcycles. As they handle pretty shit, probably all the sleepers and ballast getting in the way. Oncoming is a bit harder to deal with too...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post
    I've always found the saying, 'handle like it's on rails' to be a bit of a misnomer for motorcycles. As they handle pretty shit, probably all the sleepers and ballast getting in the way. Oncoming is a bit harder to deal with too...
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    R650R is on the money re bulk vs smaller loads.
    Rail works best for large qty's of heavy items.

    Light rail is an all together other matter.
    Driven by pollies/commuters/councils.
    Barely able to keep it's head above water.

    Main trunk line, and a few others like Tauranga are bread winners.
    Others like the damaged east coast are only good for adventure tourism. ie de-rate bridges to 10tonne and stick golf
    carts on them.
    The Whangamonata line is a good example of this.
    Regional lines are loss making, but sort of needed for community ventures. MHO

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    You must have really took offence at comments about truck drivers in that other thread to post this RTF media release.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Berries View Post
    You must have really took offence at comments about truck drivers in that other thread to post this RTF media release.
    No offence taken at other peoples lack of education... Said ages ago would start this thread after one of the other threads raised it as side issue.
    I'm really interested if the trainspotters can substantiate their desire for all non perishable goods to travel by rail with a solid argument of how it would be feasible in our modern society and affordable???

    I'm all for the govt subsidising rail too as it would create jobs and release some pressure on the transport industry. But I don't think it is workable for our modern society with regards to the storage and land costs issues.

    As for the govt making money, the govt measures its success on our GDP and the yearly balance sheet. If rail made our roads safer and less congested and raised our environmental standing while at the same time keeping us competitive in getting our export goods to international markets surely the govt would chase that??? We'd import less diesel fuel according to the greens and that would further benefit our GDP/borrowing etc....
    So if the govt isn't really interested in rail what does that tell you... If private enterprise isn't seriously interested in fronting their own money into it what does that tell you???
    Govt gives you nothing because it creates nothing - Javier Milei

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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    I'm really interested if the trainspotters can substantiate their desire for all non perishable goods to travel by rail with a solid argument of how it would be feasible in our modern society and affordable???
    Easy, logistical rework. Cloud based freight allocations on regularly scheduled and always on time trains.

    Double handling for intraNZ goods can be fixed with standard freight pallets or any other number of engineering solutions.

    Land prices is a non issue if the logistics are reworked.

    The govt should be subsiding rail, cos it's damn sure subsidising trucking. Rail has far higher potential for economies of scale than trucking too.
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    most of those are society problems, not transport ones.
    Why the fuck are you townies in such a hurry to achieve fuckall?

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    Our shit roads that constantly need work on them surely doesn't help the argument of road freight over rail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post

    The govt should be subsiding rail,
    They do, and have for many years.
    Solid energy was heavily subsidised on it's rail of coal forever, and yet it still sucks the kumara.

    Light rail et all is subsidised by the tax payers etc.

    Profitabilty and rail is only one part, as someone has already mentioned, communities should be included
    even though the govt hates it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bogan View Post
    The govt should be subsiding rail, cos it's damn sure subsidising trucking. Rail has far higher potential for economies of scale than trucking too.
    Curious to hear where you got the idea government is subsidising trucking? I've found it quite difficult to find clear, unbiased info to help form a current opinion on the who is subsidising who topic.

    Even though I'm a career trucker, the thought of long distance road freight for stuff that could or should go by rail...yep it cracks me up.

    It's been a while since I was at school, and maybe it's a bit of a European idea, but I recall that railways were never intended as a pure money making entity. The main thrust was to support business, provide employment and reduce pressure on roading infrastructure. On the basis of this 1970s economics lesson the NZ approach has been questionable I'd say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tri boy View Post
    ... Light rail et all is subsidised by the tax payers etc...
    Where does light rail exist in New Zealand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by caspernz View Post
    Curious to hear where you got the idea government is subsidising trucking? I've found it quite difficult to find clear, unbiased info to help form a current opinion on the who is subsidising who topic.

    Even though I'm a career trucker, the thought of long distance road freight for stuff that could or should go by rail...yep it cracks me up.

    It's been a while since I was at school, and maybe it's a bit of a European idea, but I recall that railways were never intended as a pure money making entity. The main thrust was to support business, provide employment and reduce pressure on roading infrastructure. On the basis of this 1970s economics lesson the NZ approach has been questionable I'd say.
    Road maintenance costs, RUC is pretty up there but it isn't reflective of the damage per km done by the differently weighted vehicle types. Though perhaps it is phrased wrong as it's not the govt per say, but the motorists. Then again, maybe the motorists pay the full share of age/weather/etc related road damages and truckies just pay for the damage they cause...
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    Bit to simplistic....

    argument isn't rail without road, or road without rail....
    argument should be how to best use both....

    and, as an island nation with Hamilton the only major city without a port what about shipping....

    I mean....
    trucking fuel to New Plymouth from the East coast.....

    really....?
    Opinions are like arseholes: Everybody has got one, but that doesn't mean you got to air it in public all the time....

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