MNZ proposed rule changes

**scracha** · 4th May 2015, 17:01

Originally Posted by malcy25

Given that none of those are stipulated as major components in chapter 25, I doubt it will be a problem. Not that I expect said change to be implemented.

I'm in two minds about it. To be honest, I think bikes like the McIntosh replicas are a complete joke.

**Voltaire** · 4th May 2015, 17:36

Originally Posted by scracha

I'm in two minds about it. To be honest, I think bikes like the McIntosh replicas are a complete joke.

I think in the UK they have historic racing and classic racing, Historic where the bike is more o less original and classic where they are pretty much replicas.

Here there is no distinction so you get old bikes and 'new' old bikes racing in the same class.

I'd like to see the no supercharger rule dumped, would be mean on the BMW

**malcy25** · 4th May 2015, 18:20

Originally Posted by scracha

I'm in two minds about it. To be honest, I think bikes like the McIntosh replicas are a complete joke.

I can't say the same. I'm literally going through the process with my TZ750, where the only realistic repair options currently available to me are:
1) $5000 USD for a damaged and welded set of original crank cases that I may run into the same problem that is causing me to shelve the ones in my bike right now or,
2) $10,000 NZD sourcing a brand newly cast and machined set of crank cases, where I got the last set of 10 reproduction items being produced in Australia.

Yamaha stopped producing these said item in the 1980s so I can't just wander down to my local dealer and buy a set and given the TOTAL production run from the 6 or 7 years these were made (1974 to 1979) was about 600 world wide, with many being destroyed or used in sidecars (Joke, boys!) -it's not like the wreckers are sitting on a pile and they were sort of fragile in this space anyway - they weren't built for 100,000km's!

World wide with very extensive contacts in TZ Yamaha circles, I was able to locate 3 sets. 1 set was not for sale, and as above, 1 set was possibly okay, with my last and safest option being reproduction. What would you do?

I suppose there is a 3rd option and I have a pretty, but useless $50-60k coffee table. Even then it wouldn't be that great as it's too high by the time you build the glass box around it. That and I bought it to torture hydrocarbons and 4 stroke riders with.

Speaking of Mr McIntosh's work: That 5 year rule would exclude the recent run of bikes made by the same company and men, in the same workshop, on the same jig, moulds and process, to the same plans....no difference to if you went and bought a new cylinder head made last year by Honda, for a 1987 CBR600, in the original mould.

Old bike racing when you get away from mass production models like CBR600's which you'll find spread far and wide in their 100,000s, relies wholely on the reproduction world. If you still want to hear, see and smell anything like Manx Norton's, RG/RGB500's TZ250-350-500-750's, reproduction parts are keeping those bikes alive. Can't say I'd like to use an original 1950's manx with 60 year old Elektron magnesium hubs.......eeek, I can hear them cracking from here!

Volty: The UK Scene is more around what mods they do - Landsdowne Historic racing club is more traditional (ie 19 inch wheels, no full fairings etc), while the Classic racing club is more like our combined NZCMRR / NZPCRA scene and rules.

**Kickaha** · 4th May 2015, 18:23

Originally Posted by Voltaire

I'd like to see the no supercharger rule dumped, would be mean on the BMW

Should be able to run a BMW 255 Kompressor, finding one may be a problem though

**scracha** · 4th May 2015, 19:47

Originally Posted by malcy25

I can't say the same. I'm literally going through the process with my TZ750, where the only realistic repair options currently available to me are:
1) $5000 USD for a damaged and welded set of original crank cases that I may run into the same problem that is causing me to shelve the ones in my bike right now or,
2) $10,000 NZD sourcing a brand newly cast and machined set of crank cases, where I got the last set of 10 reproduction items being produced in Australia.

Hmm...I can see your point.

Now where can I find these new CBR600F1 heads?

**jellywrestler** · 4th May 2015, 19:55

Originally Posted by scracha

I'm in two minds about it. To be honest, I think bikes like the McIntosh replicas are a complete joke.

i just brought a mcintosh and have gone over it in detail, i've also visited the mcintosh workshop and had a good look at the latest runs, it's nigh on impossible to spot any differences, he's still gas welding them and people ask why? his old toolmaker suggested getting the frame plotted so a company could electronically cut the rails, ready to weld, rather than hand done and offered up time and time again to check the tolerances before being hand adjusted, maening probably 30 or more % time savings per chassis, but they're sticking to the old way.
maybe wheel sizes may differ from old, but so do the gs1000's out there running 17 inches....

**scracha** · 4th May 2015, 21:15

Originally Posted by jellywrestler

i just brought a mcintosh and have gone over it in detail, i've also visited the mcintosh workshop
..

All I'd say is I think there's merit in the idea of historic vs classic bike racing. To my mind, a McIntosh Suzuki is a new bike with a new engine.

**Grumph** · 5th May 2015, 06:55

Originally Posted by scracha

All I'd say is I think there's merit in the idea of historic vs classic bike racing. To my mind, a McIntosh Suzuki is a new bike with a new engine.

I'd argue that a McIntosh manx is a new bike with a new engine....But a McIntosh Bathurst rep is a repro frame with an old engine...
AFAIK no one is making repro air cooled GSX suzuki motors and also AFAIK you can't buy new cases or major bits from Suzuki..

Jelly, I was watching on the sidelines when the Pre 82 rules were done and saw the discussion around 17 inch wheels. At the time there really was no alternative but to allow 17's as 18 inch race rubber was being phased out and it looked like the market would never get big enough for anyone to put 18's back into production.

**malcy25** · 5th May 2015, 08:10

Grumph

Yeah, years ago I had a discussion with my old friend Rob Hinton in Aussie. At the time Rob was the comissioner for Historic racing in Aussie or something - anyway, the technical rules fell under him. Rob's a pretty smart guy - his Brother is Eric and father is Harry. He's as handy on a bike as they both were and has been there and done that. His view was interesting - the short version being that 17's was going to save a lot of accidents. At least they would have rubber approximating the needs of the 150+bhp that they were build into the motor....on top of probably inexperienced riding skills. You can get the 18's but hell, he Dunlop list price is 1500 NZD a pair and they may have gone out of production. The Avon's are a better price.

Scracha, I sort of hear you in the context of at what point do you stop, but sometimes, you need to replace parts due to accident or mechanical misadventure. But is it a repro when made by the same people? Does it matter if it is a repro if the people who made it no longer can or will and someone else will?

Paton anyone?

**jellywrestler** · 5th May 2015, 09:41

Originally Posted by scracha

All I'd say is I think there's merit in the idea of historic vs classic bike racing. To my mind, a McIntosh Suzuki is a new bike with a new engine.

so where do i fit in then if i was to race mine? mine was built august 1983, it has never been finished or fired up, has just been an ornament till now yet is physically no different to one of the ones that is sitting in Ken's workshop and may have been made this year but retains an early engine?
that's being podantic and was a lucky find but if we continued with some classes like manx nortons where at the puke classics there was just one bike there with an original frame and crankcases, and most of it moidern replica stuff, the rest were modern new bikes.
like was said before, some of the old metals are 50 years past their use by date.

**jellywrestler** · 5th May 2015, 09:52

Originally Posted by Grumph

Jelly, I was watching on the sidelines when the Pre 82 rules were done and saw the discussion around 17 inch wheels. At the time there really was no alternative but to allow 17's as 18 inch race rubber was being phased out and it looked like the market would never get big enough for anyone to put 18's back into production.

yip it was the right move, but were tyre warmers?
one of ther reasons i choose not to put the plastic fantastic on the track is the wheel sizes (which would cost a fair bit to sort, and the fact that some of it is irreplaceble. replica parts would help that.

**nodrog:Me** · 5th May 2015, 10:10

Originally Posted by jellywrestler

so where do i fit in then if i was to race mine? mine was built august 1983, it has never been finished or fired up, has just been an ornament till now yet is physically no different to one of the ones that is sitting in Ken's workshop and may have been made this year but retains an early engine?
that's being podantic and was a lucky find but if we continued with some classes like manx nortons where at the puke classics there was just one bike there with an original frame and crankcases, and most of it moidern replica stuff, the rest were modern new bikes.
like was said before, some of the old metals are 50 years past their use by date.

Can I have a ride?