Flag?

[Robbo]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

Agreed, i have no problem with our current flag and would be quite happy for it to remain, but the powers to be seem to be hell bent on both changing it and getting rid of the union jack. Can't say that any of the suggested forty options do anything for me though.

[Banditbandit]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

Because our history is that the rock on the other side of the world (AKA the UK) made our ancestors refugees !!!! They kick of off the land in the Highland Clearances, in the Irish Troubles ... economic refugees from England ...

(Yes, I have whakapapa back to that rock as well ... which I am slo familar with - whakapapa is whakapapa)

Why should we retain ties and have as our head of state the last vestiges of the British Ruling Class ??? (who have only ever fucked over my ancestors ... from all over)

[caspernz]

The flag debate/review is merely an attempt at misdirection. The country has serious issues that are unpalatable to tackle by the current government, so let's debate an irrelevant topic that evokes emotion amongst the masses...

[Ocean1]

Playing the devil's advocate for the moment - why are we so keen to throw away our heritage?
There is a lot of comment about removing the Union Jack and "..cutting our ties with Britain".
Why?

A good portion of our citizens have Scots, Welsh and English ancestors as the initial waves of white immigrants were poor yeoman farmers from these areas.
Our laws, culture and societal structure owe an awful lot to these people.

So whereas I have no problem with the recognition of where we are on the planet (the southern cross) and the polynesian infulences (koru), why are we so keen to abandon our history?

Maybe because that's where we came from, it's not where we are. It's the colonialist perspective, the language of emigrants, not of immigrants. Or their children. The citizens of a new nation deserve a new identity.

The flag debate/review is merely an attempt at misdirection. The country has serious issues that are unpalatable to tackle by the current government, so let's debate an irrelevant topic that evokes emotion amongst the masses...

That's a rather large oxymoron to be hanging such a pitiable wee conspiracy theory on innit?

[mashman]

The flag debate/review is merely an attempt at misdirection. The country has serious issues that are unpalatable to tackle by the current government, so let's debate an irrelevant topic that evokes emotion amongst the masses...

No doubt. I'm slowly warming to the idea... it could be useful .

Maybe because that's where we came from, it's not where we are. It's the colonialist perspective, the language of emigrants, not of immigrants. Or their children. The citizens of a new nation deserve a new identity.

... A new identity? Oh dear.

[ellipsis]

No doubt. I'm slowly warming to the idea... it could be useful .



... A new identity? Oh dear.

...will it come with a made in NZ barcode...

[mashman]

...will it come with a made in NZ barcode...

ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa... nah, humans'd never do that to each other. We'll all be stars

[jonbuoy]

Because our history is that the rock on the other side of the world (AKA the UK) made our ancestors refugees !!!! They kick of off the land in the Highland Clearances, in the Irish Troubles ... economic refugees from England ...

(Yes, I have whakapapa back to that rock as well ... which I am slo familar with - whakapapa is whakapapa)

Why should we retain ties and have as our head of state the last vestiges of the British Ruling Class ??? (who have only ever fucked over my ancestors ... from all over)

Its now 2015, things have changed times moved on you can´t keep dragging up old historical slights - if we did humans would still be stuck in the dark ages. Modern NZ ancestors/founders chose the current flag - if the current modern NZers wants a new one go for it. It won´t make any difference to how people perceive NZ on an international scale, it won´t be life changing for anyone except flag makers and printing companies. Outsiders will judge NZ and NZers on what they do not the flag that flies on the government buildings.

[caspernz]

That's a rather large oxymoron to be hanging such a pitiable wee conspiracy theory on innit?

Not a conspiracy theory as such, but when we have an immigration issue and a housing affordability issue in Auckland...that the government seems to want to bury its head in the sand about to a large degree, the flag debate is in my mind a misdirection tool.

[Maha]

Its now 2015, things have changed times moved on you can´t keep dragging up old historical slights - if we did humans would still be stuck in the dark ages. Modern NZ ancestors/founders chose the current flag - if the current modern NZers wants a new one go for it. It won´t make any difference to how people perceive NZ on an international scale, it won´t be life changing for anyone except flag makers and printing companies. Outsiders will judge NZ and NZers on what they do not the flag that flies on the government buildings.

Absolutely 100% correct, I couldn't tell you what the Ethiopian flag looks like but I know they breed awesome long distance runners. And generally speaking Kiwi's are known as generous people who live in a wonderful country, and a good portion of the rest of the world (the tourist that visit here) just love NZ.
Even if the current flag does eventually change, the existing flag will make appearances at events for many years to come. I have no issue with our national flag, its what I've know for over half a century.

[Ocean1]

Not a conspiracy theory as such, but when we have an immigration issue and a housing affordability issue in Auckland...that the government seems to want to bury its head in the sand about to a large degree, the flag debate is in my mind a misdirection tool.

What immigration issue? And why would you expect houses in Auckland to be any cheaper than any other city in the world's top dozen most preferred places to live? And why are they things you'd expect government to "fix"?

And what's so special about those issues that makes a government any more likely to want to divert attention from them than any other time full of "issues". What's wrong with the simplest answer: they just want to talk about changing the national flag? Or is there never not an ulterior motive?

[caspernz]

What immigration issue? And why would you expect houses in Auckland to be any cheaper than any other city in the world's top dozen most preferred places to live? And why are they things you'd expect government to "fix"?

And what's so special about those issues that makes a government any more likely to want to divert attention from them than any other time full of "issues". What's wrong with the simplest answer: they just want to talk about changing the national flag? Or is there never not an ulterior motive?

A visit to a few real estate auctions in Auckland will answer the immigration and housing aspects I'm referring to. For starters, why should someone who doesn't even live here, be allowed to buy a multitude of homes?

And to my way of thinking, the talk of changing the flag should go hand in hand with becoming a republic.

[98tls]

What immigration issue? And why would you expect houses in Auckland to be any cheaper than any other city in the world's top dozen most preferred places to live? And why are they things you'd expect government to "fix"?

And what's so special about those issues that makes a government any more likely to want to divert attention from them than any other time full of "issues". What's wrong with the simplest answer: they just want to talk about changing the national flag? Or is there never not an ulterior motive?

Define "preferred"...fact is theres suburbs of citizens that simply washed up there and it seems are quite happy to stay despite the fact they supposedly cant find work,to easy to stay or to lazy to move etc either way many of em wouldnt give a fuck about the national flag present or future just as they dont give a fuck about the country bar what it can give them in handouts.That said shouldnt whinge i guess at least if there up there there not here which is about all you can hope for these days.We live in a country with a horrendous workers to bludgers ratio per head and here we go spending millons on a National flag way things are going why not a flag with whatever WINZ has as the letterhead.

[mossy1200]

Not being a flaggy person really I cant understand the urgent importance to change the flag.

Might have been cheaper to get the schools to run a flag design competition than spend 28mill then take a small sample vote to see if people want to change to the new design before a referendum.

It always seems like someone with an idea to put their mark on something will push it at any cost especially when someone else is funding that idea.

28million. That's a lot of money. Guess what maters is its not as much as we gave Solid Energy.
Help me understand why a Government that like to sell our stuff likes to bail out private companies.

[caspernz]

Define "preferred"...fact is theres suburbs of citizens that simply washed up there and it seems are quite happy to stay despite the fact they supposedly cant find work,to easy to stay or to lazy to move etc either way many of em wouldnt give a fuck about the national flag present or future just as they dont give a fuck about the country bar what it can give them in handouts.That said shouldnt whinge i guess at least if there up there there not here which is about all you can hope for these days.

That's one end of the spectrum. Any country and/or town will always have a portion of dropkicks/losers, not much you can do about that. Just can't see the sense in selling off houses to folks living outside NZ...when we can't buy real estate in their home country.