Flag?

[Ocean1]

No body borrows in order to set up and meet production targets? - can you (simplistically) explain what you mean by that? - serious question?

Edit: Anytime - I have to go to bed now.

On the production side, yes, there's projected revenue resulting from the purchase that justifies it. Although, as a manufacturer / supplier I've never borrowed money to purchase capital plant.

On the consumption side, no. The old saying "never borrow to buy a depreciating asset" applies even more.

[Banditbandit]

The problem isn't in reducing the number of "labour units", it's training them to behave like humans, not machines.

No, I'm sorry - but our education system IS all about training human beings to behave like machines - that is exactly why control over the tertiary training system was handed to employers ...

Seriously, nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery. Get a life worth living, contribute to the explosion in living standards.

What a white middle class statement - I have worked with lots of people who are very happy in minimum-skill jobs ... yes, they are not very bright - but they are exactly the sort of peopel we need BECAUSE they are happy in those jobs ...

Taking the path of least resistance wasn't a good idea at school, and it only gets worse when you start asking people to pay for your efforts.

I took the path of maximum resistance ... I was completely resistant to school .. left school and promptly got a job in a shearing gang ... then in a tannery .. etc etc ... my return to education was much later in life ...

Or they could upskill/cross-train as we've been doing since we gave up the caves and mud-huts.

Yeah - people do that ... but many are unable to do that ..

[Tazz]

But as he said, money is still going where it is needed

Try telling that to the folks in working in some government departments who have been on a wage freeze since 2008, meanwhile 5.5% pay rise to MP's last time around (I know allegedly JK doesn't take his $400+ k a year, but he's hardly a José Mujica).

Like I said, I'm not adverse to changing it, and I'm not anti JK by default either (by comparison to what has been on offer past elections) but to me he's said it's essentially chump change and everything else is fine humming along under funded, and that is a crock.

The little comment about the Greens doing it was a bit petty too.

As for choosing how to act, yeah for sure, I don't think we'd ever be that bad, but using that sort of thing as an argument for a flag change, yeah nah.
That said, what's wrong with not being overtly patriotic? Why do we have to copy what others are doing?

[Ocean1]

No, I'm sorry - but our education system IS all about training human beings to behave like machines - that is exactly why control over the tertiary training system was handed to employers ...

Bullshit, it was simply removed from hand-wringing academic socialist wannabe's and placed in the hands of the person who owns it: the student.

Far be it from me to suggest students train with an eye to what their training's worth, just don't whine if underwater tofu basket weaving turns out not to have been a smart career investment move.

What a white middle class statement - I have worked with lots of people who are very happy in minimum-skill jobs ... yes, they are not very bright - but they are exactly the sort of peopel we need BECAUSE they are happy in those jobs ...

What a beige non-productive class statement, out here in the real world the minimum skill class get to be as happy as they can afford to be, just like the rest of us. Ideally they get to afford that without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth.

I took the path of maximum resistance ... I was completely resistajt to school .. left school and promptly got a job in a shearing gang ... then in a tannery .. etc etc ... my return to education was much later in life ...

That's not maximum resistance, that's just doing what you wanted rather than what you should have. Easy. Deferring your wants until you'd made the tools to earn them is a fucking sight more difficult.

[mossy1200]

Just a note.
Some of the flag designs don't have one of the 5 Olympic ring colours? Don't the Olympics pride themselves in including a colour that's on every competing nations flag?

[bogan]

Try telling that to the folks in working in some government departments who have been on a wage freeze since 2008, meanwhile 5.5% pay rise to MP's last time around (I know allegedly JK doesn't take his $400+ k a year, but he's hardly a José Mujica).

Like I said, I'm not adverse to changing it, and I'm not anti JK by default either (by comparison to what has been on offer past elections) but to me he's said it's essentially chump change and everything else is fine humming along under funded, and that is a crock.

The little comment about the Greens doing it was a bit petty too.

As for choosing how to act, yeah for sure, I don't think we'd ever be that bad, but using that sort of thing as an argument for a flag change, yeah nah.
That said, what's wrong with not being overtly patriotic? Why do we have to copy what others are doing?

Tell it to our free / heavily subsidised healthcare and education...

So, are you asking for a tax hike then, because 26mil is chump change compared to how 'under funded' we are.

Petty, but right on the money.

Patriotism seems a better option than apathy.

[Tazz]

Tell it to our free / heavily subsidised healthcare and education...

So, are you asking for a tax hike then, because 26mil is chump change compared to how 'under funded' we are.

Petty, but right on the money.

Patriotism seems a better option than apathy.

I don't think I missed the point at all. I understand where you're coming from, and disagree

Why do taxes need to be hiked to cover the 26mil? It shouldn't have been spent on this shit in the first case is the argument, and that type of attitude is why it is chump change compared to what is needed.

Subsiding tertiary education benefits everyone, so long as there is not over 'emphasis' on certain areas, but that and healthcare under a public or private model is another topic. Right now there are people who work within that industry, and cast your mind aside from what and how patients pay, who are on a wage freeze.

That, in my mind anyway, is not having everything covered enough to throw money about on a pet project. Yes people will always want money to go else where than their neighbour, but it's a bit different if you think things are shit enough to implement a financial freeze on multiple sectors, then it's not simply dividing up, it's a shortage... That's how my mind works anyway, hence the whinge

Right on the money, so lets spend more money and make the same mistake because they did? Very logical and decisive leadership. He is certainly boss of the sand pit

Would you say in your experience NZer's are apathetic?

[bogan]

I don't think I missed the point at all. I understand where you're coming from, and disagree

Why do taxes need to be hiked to cover the 26mil? It shouldn't have been spent on this shit in the first case is the argument, and that type of attitude is why it is chump change compared to what is needed.

Subsiding tertiary education benefits everyone, so long as there is not over 'emphasis' on certain areas, but that and healthcare under a public or private model is another topic. Right now there are people who work within that industry, and cast your mind aside from what and how patients pay, who are on a wage freeze.

That, in my mind anyway, is not having everything covered enough to throw money about on a pet project. Yes people will always want money to go else where than their neighbour, but it's a bit different if you think things are shit enough to implement a financial freeze on multiple sectors, then it's not simply dividing up, it's a shortage... That's how my mind works anyway, hence the whinge

Right on the money, so lets spend more money and make the same mistake because they did? Very logical and decisive leadership. He is certainly boss of the sand pit

Would you say in your experience NZer's are apathetic?

Nah, your counterpoint that money isn't going everywhere you think it needs to illustrated you missed mine.

They would need to be hiked to cover everything everyone thinks is a need; I dare say past 100% too.

See above.

See above.

What mistake? They exercised democratic process.

Probably, but I can't be arsed When it comes to issues concerning our country, I'd say yes.

[Banditbandit]

Bullshit, it was simply removed from hand-wringing academic socialist wannabe's and placed in the hands of the person who owns it: the student.

Crap - to get a new programme approved by NZQA we have to prove that we have consulted with employers and they want the new qualificiatrion and training programme.

All unit standards are written by the employer/producer sector. We have no say about what goes into those at all. We get told by the bosses what we are allowed to teach in our training programmes.

Far be it from me to suggest students train with an eye to what their training's worth, just don't whine if underwater tofu basket weaving turns out not to have been a smart career investment move.

Course they do - that's why we produce so many lawyers and accountants (even tho' we don't need them) becasue students see that is where the money is ...

What a beige non-productive class statement, out here in the real world the minimum skill class get to be as happy as they can afford to be, just like the rest of us. Ideally they get to afford that without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth.

Why is part of the non-productive class to challenge your statement that "Nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery." Some of the people I have worked with were very happy in minimum skill low paid jobs ... some of us wherer just there to pay the rent and buy food ... but for others that was what they would do for the rest of their lives .. adn they were happy ...


Where did this come from? "without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth"? We're talking about employed people here

That's not maximum resistance, that's just doing what you wanted rather than what you should have. Easy. Deferring your wants until you'd made the tools to earn them is a fucking sight more difficult.

"doing what you should have ... " ... Yeah ..

Earn them .. Yeah ... hat's how I ended up with a freehold home, a boat, two motorbikes ... I certainly did not get those on the dole ...

[Banditbandit]

Just a note.
Some of the flag designs don't have one of the 5 Olympic ring colours? Don't the Olympics pride themselves in including a colour that's on every competing nations flag?

I suggested this as a new flag design ...






They wouldn't accept it - because "it is not your orignal design".

[Swoop]

Crap - to get a new programme approved by NZQA we have to prove that we have consulted with employers and they want the new qualificiatrion and training programme.

All unit standards are written by the employer/producer sector. We have no say about what goes into those at all. We get told by the bosses what we are allowed to teach in our training programmes.

There is the rub, right there. It will become harder and harder for Polytech's and Universities to start up courses due to "industry" input dictating what the graduate profile should look like.
Then there is the demand that training should be taking place "in industry", so the ed. providers are screwed. On top of that there is the expense of carrying a bloated administration and management structure which ramps up the fees exorbitantly, making the "train in industry" pathway even more enticing.

The cherry on top is that the student gets paid to learn, rather than ramping up a massive student debt at Uni.


I doubt the teaching unions are happy with the approaching future.

[Banditbandit]

There is the rub, right there. It will become harder and harder for Polytech's and Universities to start up courses due to "industry" input dictating what the graduate profile should look like.
Then there is the demand that training should be taking place "in industry", so the ed. providers are screwed. On top of that there is the expense of carrying a bloated administration and management structure which ramps up the fees exorbitantly, making the "train in industry" pathway even more enticing.

The cherry on top is that the student gets paid to learn, rather than ramping up a massive student debt at Uni.


I doubt the teaching unions are happy with the approaching future.

Yeah .. all that - but industry once provided the training ... then they moved it all into Polytechs .. and PTEs. Saved the employer shit loads . but added to the tax load ..

They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...and there are major issues with quality control in workplaces - how do you ensure that workers in different workplaces have learnt the same stuff?

My preference is really for experential learning - and I would suggest that for every year a student sits in a tertiary classroom they need to spend three years on the job to really learn it - so a one year certificate - now do three years on the job. For a degree - now spend nine years on the job (3 classroom years times 3 years expereince). After nine years on the job post-graduation the student might have learnt the job ...

[Voltaire]

Yeah .. all that - but industry once provided the training ... then they moved it all into Polytechs .. and PTEs. Saved the employer shit loads . but added to the tax load ..

They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...and there are major issues with quality control in workplaces - how do you ensure that workers in different workplaces have learnt the same stuff?

My preference is really for experential learning - and I would suggest that for every year a student sits in a tertiary classroom they need to spend three years on the job to really learn it - so a one year certificate - now do three years on the job. For a degree - now spend nine years on the job (3 classroom years times 3 years expereince). After nine years on the job post-graduation the student might have learnt the job ...

I did an Electrical apprenticeship in the early 80's and we used to go 1 day f/n at tech and two nights a week.

My Son is doing one now and he says no one will fail the course....

A mix of on the job and tech/uni is probably the way to go.

I suspect some of the so called training places are just business's taking money and giving out certificates.

I've been doing interviewing for an electrical ( air con would be a bonus) technical role and bugger all out there.

[Erelyes]

The powers to be seem to be hell bent on both changing it and getting rid of the union jack.

John Key pointed out that they could well have just cast a vote amongst the MPs and be done with it, but the country would have been well pissed off if they did that. So hence the referenda.

The local paper had an interesting poll, calling for votes between 5 flags: 4 of the 40 proposed flags, and the incumbent.

The incumbent won at around 127, but the next choice after was 90-something, and if you add the 'alternatives' together it was within a few votes of the incumbent.

I was pleasantly surprised, I would have thought the paper-reading populace more conservative than that.

In fact if anything it's Facebook that seems to be dominated by 'keep the flag' views.

[Swoop]

Saved the employer shit loads . They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...

Not so. The areas I've seen/been involved with are saying that employees disappearing to a provider means unproductive time. Employers are demanding that all training is done in the workplace and just get an assessor in to check them and sign them off.

If students wise up, they will soon just get a job, then a bit of experience then just apply for RPL/RCC to get the qual. ITO's haven't cottoned on to this yet...