Flag?

[Ocean1]

Crap - to get a new programme approved by NZQA we have to prove that we have consulted with employers and they want the new qualificiatrion and training programme.

All unit standards are written by the employer/producer sector. We have no say about what goes into those at all. We get told by the bosses what we are allowed to teach in our training programmes.

So, you have to go cap in hand to Acme Bakery Ltd for agreement that they're personally happy with your course?

You sure about that?

I rather think it's just that the construction of industry training standards should probably involve representatives from that industry, don't you? Only, we've done it the other way before if you recall, with less than stellar results.

Course they do - that's why we produce so many lawyers and accountants (even tho' we don't need them) becasue students see that is where the money is ...

And you'd rather they learned what you think they aught to learn. Big fuck off, there dude, you can teach them what you want when you're paying them to do so. In the meantime, where does the money for the training come from?

Why is part of the non-productive class to challenge your statement that "Nobody's life is enhanced by minimum-skill drudgery." Some of the people I have worked with were very happy in minimum skill low paid jobs ... some of us wherer just there to pay the rent and buy food ... but for others that was what they would do for the rest of their lives .. adn they were happy ...

Same reason it's part of white middle class to challenge people to do better than minimum-skill drudgery. I suggest it's an almost blasphemous waste of a life. But hey, if they're happy it's all good. Innit?

Where did this come from? "without having everyone else pay them more than they're worth"? We're talking about employed people here.

It came form the simple fact that NZ's minimum wage law means that anyone working at that level is paid more than their customers want to pay for their service.

"doing what you should have ... " ... Yeah ..

Earn them .. Yeah ... hat's how I ended up with a freehold home, a boat, two motorbikes ... I certainly did not get those on the dole ...

Which you could have had a fucking sight earlier if you'd chosen different career training options. Nor did I mention any dole. Your life's none of my business, sounds like it's working OK for you. Just don't whine about the effect of study options when the student is 95% of the cause of the outcomes.

[Ocean1]

There is the rub, right there. It will become harder and harder for Polytech's and Universities to start up courses due to "industry" input dictating what the graduate profile should look like.
Then there is the demand that training should be taking place "in industry", so the ed. providers are screwed. On top of that there is the expense of carrying a bloated administration and management structure which ramps up the fees exorbitantly, making the "train in industry" pathway even more enticing.

The cherry on top is that the student gets paid to learn, rather than ramping up a massive student debt at Uni.


I doubt the teaching unions are happy with the approaching future.

Yeah .. all that - but industry once provided the training ... then they moved it all into Polytechs .. and PTEs. Saved the employer shit loads . but added to the tax load ..

They don't really want it back .. it's too expensive for them ...and there are major issues with quality control in workplaces - how do you ensure that workers in different workplaces have learnt the same stuff?

My preference is really for experential learning - and I would suggest that for every year a student sits in a tertiary classroom they need to spend three years on the job to really learn it - so a one year certificate - now do three years on the job. For a degree - now spend nine years on the job (3 classroom years times 3 years expereince). After nine years on the job post-graduation the student might have learnt the job ...

So, cadetships? Apprenticeships?

Who pays for them?

[Ocean1]

I suspect some of the so called training places are just business's taking money and giving out certificates.

I know of one institution that produced certificates costing $2000, they supplied one CD and one laptop. Attendance not compulsory.

Funny that, every time you subsidise something someone immediately takes it, and supplies the absolute minimum in order to do so.

Doesn't help that those subsidising shit are almost always using other peoples money to do so.

[Banditbandit]

So, you have to go cap in hand to Acme Bakery Ltd for agreement that they're personally happy with your course?

You sure about that?

Absoluterly - I am involved as part of my job in developing new tertiary courses - and they all need industrry support (The university sector is a different - I don't work in a university). If we can';t show industry support we don't get our courses approved for funding ..

I rather think it's just that the construction of industry training standards should probably involve representatives from that industry, don't you? Only, we've done it the other way before if you recall, with less than stellar results.

I agree. We should not have teaching programes and qualifications if they do not lead to the student getting a job at the end. An argument I have with some of the teaching staff who think they are the best peopel to decide what gets taught.

Hasving said that, ut is the total control of the training programmes by employers that I dislike. Sure, students need the skils to work in the industry, but the industry just wants robots - education is more than producing skilled robots. Education should be life-changing, not just training for a job.

And you'd rather they learned what you think they aught to learn. Big fuck off, there dude, you can teach them what you want when you're paying them to do so. In the meantime, where does the money for the training come from?

No - I never said that, and as you will gather from my answer above, I don't agree with that. Students certainly need to learn skills, have knowledge, but they should also become better citizens, whatever that idea means to the stduents, NOT to me ...

Same reason it's part of white middle class to challenge people to do better than minimum-skill drudgery. I suggest it's an almost blasphemous waste of a life. But hey, if they're happy it's all good. Innit?

I put the last part first - as long as they are happy. It's their judgement, not yours or mine . To suggest that "it's almost a blasphemous waste of life" is a white middle class judgement - I refuse to judge another person's life that way. .

It came form the simple fact that NZ's minimum wage law means that anyone working at that level is paid more than their customers want to pay for their service.

In that case, the laws of the free market come into play. If a service costs more than the customers want to pay the customers wil not pay and the jobs will cease to exist.

That is clearly the case in our coal industry - it's collapsing because the world does not want to pay high prices for coal - the price of coal is less than the cost of getting it out of the ground and shipping it to industry -

Which you could have had a fucking sight earlier if you'd chosen different career training options.

As I gave you no time frame on when I got that - how the hell can you say that ? I've owned more than one motorcycle at any one time since way back .. I only recently bought the boat because I live on the coast ... and love to fish ..

Your life's none of my business, sounds like it's working OK for you. Just don't whine about the effect of study options when the student is 95% of the cause of the outcomes.

My point was that I took an alternative path - and still had similar life outcomes ...

[Swoop]

So, cadetships? Apprenticeships?

Who pays for them?

Apprenticeships have been around for centuries.
Young lad/lass goes and finds employer and signs up. Employer pays wages and also pays for training (sometimes in-house, sometimes at a polytech).

Alternative path:
Young lad/lass can't find employment. Goes to polytech to gain experience in chosen field. Government pays 75%, student pays 25% via a student loan. Employment prospects are greater after sucessfully completing course.
Employers like this as the person is more productive than someone straight off of the street.



Polytech & Universities rorted the system with CD-rom/free laptop scams which slurped up money from government. Government cottoned on to this and conducted the TRoQ review of qualifications. Result: only one course approved by NZQA in the country with Uni/Poly delivering what is requested by the "owners" of the course (the industry). Industry thinks it can "do it cheaper" in-house.

Interesting times...

[mashman]

John Oliver reveals 'greatest' NZ flag design which didn't make shortlist

[Pixie]

Half an arse on a black background - obviously.

....but we'll get some crappy rag with a white feather on it.

[husaberg]

[Voltaire]

Richie says we should change the flag....and so did Conrad.
While we are at it lets get rid of the New Zealand name, I've been to Zealand and it looks nothing like here. Its flat and boring....maybe Abel Tasman landed in Christchurch first.
New Flag


How about AllBlackland, or Newstraylia.

[husaberg]

Richie says we should change the flag....and so did Conrad.
While we are at it lets get rid of the New Zealand name, I've been to Zealand and it looks nothing like here. Its flat and boring....maybe Abel Tasman landed in Christchurch first.
New Flag


How about AllBlackland, or Newstraylia.

I think the flag should look more like this.
I think it about sums us up.

[J.A.W.]

Richie says we should change the flag....and so did Conrad.
While we are at it lets get rid of the New Zealand name, I've been to Zealand and it looks nothing like here. Its flat and boring....maybe Abel Tasman landed in Christchurch first.
New Flag


How about AllBlackland, or Newstraylia.

Poor birdie.. Ah well, as mums always said.. "You'll put your bloody eye out doing that.."

[Swoop]

Oh fuck. Now a pointy-ball twat is "endorsing" the change. He seems to like the white feather since he's seen it waved around so much.
Naked-fucking-arse.

[husaberg]

Mk 3.............we need some sponsorship

Oh fuck. Now a pointy-ball twat is "endorsing" the change. He seems to like the white feather since he's seen it waved around so much.
Naked-fucking-arse.

You mean Sir Richard McCrawl.

[Voltaire]

On one had they want to get rid of the Union bit on the flag, but still happy to get a Knighthood....maybe the Order of the Fern would be more in line.

[oldrider]

Fuck this flag shit - like we can afford this kind of folly right now - talk about priorities! - meanwhile back at the TPPA public debate? - Oh it's secret!