Flag?

[Berries]

I suspect quite a high percentage of kiwis that travel overseas would support a change of flag, most that oppose the change have no idea of what a crappy flag ours is on the international stage.

What a load of shit.



No offence, but that is one big assumption.

[MarkH]

yet it's THIS that you focus attention on

No, no it really isn't.
Could you explain why you think I'm focusing on that?
I suggested it was pretty much a non-issue and you think it is the thing I'm focusing on?
I guess reading comprehension is hard.

[MarkH]

Please - don't get me started. I don't have enough life left to list all the things, individually or collectively, that could have usefully received some or all of the $26m wasted on this ridiculous charade. We'll start with DHBs who can't update essential patient care equipment (I know of a specific example where less than $10m is required, and the government replied "we can't afford it"), move past conservation projects that have failed for lack of available funding, and on to a driver education plan to improve road safety that won't happen.

Then there's the 10s of millions that will be needed to actually change the flag. I wonder where all the new flags would be made?

Blah blah blah.

For one thing - the $26m is NOT a reason to not vote to change the flag, that money is spent regardless.

All this fucking bullshit about what else they could do with the money - next you will claim we shouldn't have a general election (costs way more than what a referendum does), so we should maybe just have JK in charge until he dies then?
There are some costs to having a democracy, in my opinion it is better than having the government just decide on a new flag and change it, which is how it worked in most other countries (including Canada) when they have changed their flags.

[MarkH]

What a load of shit.

No offence, but that is one big assumption.

Nope, not even the tiniest assumption.
You might need to read carefully what I typed to understand why though.
I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

[gjm]

Blah blah blah.

For one thing - the $26m is NOT a reason to not vote to change the flag, that money is spent regardless.

All this fucking bullshit about what else they could do with the money - next you will claim we shouldn't have a general election (costs way more than what a referendum does), so we should maybe just have JK in charge until he dies then?
There are some costs to having a democracy, in my opinion it is better than having the government just decide on a new flag and change it, which is how it worked in most other countries (including Canada) when they have changed their flags.

Eloquent. I will be voting, of course.

I assume everyone has read about the 'campaign' meeting that was called by National this morning with regard to the flag referendum? 32 National MPs were invited (those believed to be in support changing the flag), and about 10 attended.



I thought the referendum was to allow NZ voters to make an informed decision as regards changing the flag. This sounds much more like National trying to persuade people they want to change it.

[Berries]

You might need to read carefully what I typed to understand why though.
I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.

Classic. So what percentage of New Zealanders that travel overseas support a change of flag? I am genuinely interested as I only have my personal view based on my own interaction with travelling New Zealanders over the last 30 odd years while you have your "suspicion". I don't recall that many backpacks with feathers on them. When you are in Mali or Peru it doesn't really matter that a local mistakes you for an Australian does it? I am talking the flag here, not the fact you have the same accents, look the same and live similar lives other than the chup on the shoulder that some New Zealanders have about their closest neighbour.

Out of interest, do you know the difference between the Irish flag, the Italian flag and the Mexican flag without using Google? What is the difference between the Danish flag, the Norwegian flag and the Swiss flag? In the end, who really cares and what does it matter? All flags are shit.

[MarkH]

I assume everyone has read about the 'campaign' meeting that was called by National this morning with regard to the flag referendum? 32 National MPs were invited (those believed to be in support changing the flag), and about 10 attended.

I fail to see what the big deal is there.
I'm pretty sure that lots of people opposed to the flag change have publicly voiced their opinion so why would it be wrong for those in favour of change to put out a message about their support of the flag?

Right here you are expressing your opinion on the matter and I'm expressing mine, what is wrong with some debate?
I have no problem with anyone on either side of this getting organised and promoting their viewpoint, isn't that one of the great things about living in a free society?

Maybe it is just that this is National and the National haters will find something wrong with anything that National does?

[MarkH]

Classic. So what percentage of New Zealanders that travel overseas support a change of flag? I am genuinely interested as I only have my personal view based on my own interaction with travelling New Zealanders over the last 30 odd years while you have your "suspicion". I don't recall that many backpacks with feathers on them. When you are in Mali or Peru it doesn't really matter that a local mistakes you for an Australian does it? I am talking the flag here, not the fact you have the same accents, look the same and live similar lives other than the chup on the shoulder that some New Zealanders have about their closest neighbour.

Out of interest, do you know the difference between the Irish flag, the Italian flag and the Mexican flag without using Google? What is the difference between the Danish flag, the Norwegian flag and the Swiss flag? In the end, who really cares and what does it matter? All flags are shit.

a. I never claimed to know the percentages, maybe re-read what I typed a few more times until you understand. I didn't even make a claim that it was the majority of those overseas, just that it quite a high percentage.
b. If it all doesn't matter bugger all then I guess that you are fine if we change the flag and also fine if we dont?

There are a lot of European flags that I'm not a fan of, as you rightly point out they are not easy to remember & recognise.
You make an excellent point about many other countries that should be looking at changing their flags, but as a New Zealander I'm certainly not going to travel to Italy or wherever to start a campaign to change to a better flag - that is something for them to worry about, or not, as the case may be.
I'm not sure the Mexican flag is a good example, that has some sort of picture in the middle that Irish & Italian flags don't - are you sure you didn't mean Irish, Italian & French flags?
You are right about the Danish, Norwegian & Swiss flags all being a bit similar, I have no idea of whether the people of those nations like their flags or not though.
I would have no problem pointing out which flag is the Swiss one, but I'd probably need google to be sure which was the Danish and which was the Norwegian flag - I'd be able to see that they were different but damned if I'd remember which is which.

I'm not quite sure of the point with the other flags I don't like.
What about the flags I do like?
The UK flag is pretty distinctive, I never have any trouble recognising that one.
Canada, USA & Japan all have flags that I find quite recognisable too.

[bogan]

I thought the referendum was to allow NZ voters to make an informed decision as regards changing the flag. This sounds much more like National trying to persuade people they want to change it.

Hmm, if only there was some sort of setup whereby multiple groups of governmental representatives could promote different ideas to the people, maybe they could even be called parties, just to make it sound like fun... Reckon that could ever catch on?

[Erelyes]

32 National MPs were invited (those believed to be in support changing the flag), and about 10 attended.

I'm amazed that 10 attended given the meeting time was 7.30am the very next morning. MPs are humans too and might have wives/husbands to fuck, children to yell at, prior commitments to businesses/charities/organisations, etc.

I like how Ocean's point about $26m being a drop in the bucket went unanswered by you. Fact of the matter is $26m only seems like a lot of money for those who don't understand context.

A bit like your case about how a DHB has asked for $10m for something from Central and been told 'We don't have the money'. Ocean mentioned health spending is 15.6bn. Perhaps more telling, and what he didn't mention, is that last year (14-15) it was 15.1 bn. So perhaps your 'we don't have the money' should be rephrased as 'We already gave you more money, what did you do with it?'

But tell me more about how the National govt and JK are a bunch of cunts despite increasing health spending half a bill.
Oh and increasing education spending .2 bill.
And increased spending in both, in 14-15, compared with 13-14.

And for the record, I didn't even vote for em, I just get grumpy when people cherry-pick things they see as a minus and ignore everything else.

[Berries]

b. If it all doesn't matter bugger all then I guess that you are fine if we change the flag and also fine if we dont?

Yep, I really couldn't give a shit. I do enjoy all the frothing at the mouth that accompanies the idea though.

[bogan]

I'm amazed that 10 attended given the meeting time was 7.30am the very next morning. MPs are humans too and might have wives/husbands to fuck, children to yell at, prior commitments to businesses/charities/organisations, etc.

I like how Ocean's point about $26m being a drop in the bucket went unanswered by you. Fact of the matter is $26m only seems like a lot of money for those who don't understand context.

A bit like your case about how a DHB has asked for $10m for something from Central and been told 'We don't have the money'. Ocean mentioned health spending is 15.6bn. Perhaps more telling, and what he didn't mention, is that last year (14-15) it was 15.1 bn. So perhaps your 'we don't have the money' should be rephrased as 'We already gave you more money, what did you do with it?'

But tell me more about how the National govt and JK are a bunch of cunts despite increasing health spending half a bill.
Oh and increasing education spending .2 bill.
And increased spending in both, in 14-15, compared with 13-14.

And for the record, I didn't even vote for em, I just get grumpy when people cherry-pick things they see as a minus and ignore everything else.

They have mint taste in cars though... Since they only got 30 odd, instead of like 130 to cover all members of parliament, we can afford this flag referendum with the savings right there...

[Madness]

You make an excellent point about many other countries that should be looking at changing their flags...

Where did he say that? The bastard must have edited his post

[mashman]

A bit like your case about how a DHB has asked for $10m for something from Central and been told 'We don't have the money'. Ocean mentioned health spending is 15.6bn. Perhaps more telling, and what he didn't mention, is that last year (14-15) it was 15.1 bn. So perhaps your 'we don't have the money' should be rephrased as 'We already gave you more money, what did you do with it?'

Likely paid for the ever increasing costs associated with running DHB's, inflation etc...? When the budget is that large lots of stuff is being consumed/paid for, and all of those things are subject to inflation i.e. price rises? Surely $10 million is a drop in the ocean?

[mashman]

I agree with John Oliver. If NZ had have been serious about having a flag that was highly distinguishable and highly marketable, they would have chosen:



You're never going to forget it once you've looked at it.