Flag?

[Ripperjon]

All flags are shit.

Bar one...

[Berries]

You make an excellent point about many other countries that should be looking at changing their flags.

Where did he say that? The bastard must have edited his post

Nah, MarkH was assuming that because I said some flags were similar to each other that I meant that one or the other should be changed which was not the case at all.

[Daffyd]

I was going to stay out of this debate, but for what it's worth, I was lucky enough to attend the 2009 British F1 GP at Silverstone, and for anyone that hasn't been to one, it's a bit like the old A & P shows in NZ. Row upon row of sideshows, thrill rides, and stalls. One such stall was selling flags so I moseyed on up and asked if they had an NZ one.

"Of course, we have all flags." And then proudly brought out an Australian one.

"No," says I, "A New Zealand one."

"This IS a New Zealand one."

"No, this is an Australian one."

"Is there a difference?"

I said, "Look it up, you might learn something!" And walked away. Arrogant fucken Poms!

For this reason, I support the change.

[oldrider]

I was going to stay out of this debate, but for what it's worth, I was lucky enough to attend the 2009 British F1 GP at Silverstone, and for anyone that hasn't been to one, it's a bit like the old A & P shows in NZ. Row upon row of sideshows, thrill rides, and stalls. One such stall was selling flags so I moseyed on up and asked if they had an NZ one.

"Of course, we have all flags." And then proudly brought out an Australian one.

"No," says I, "A New Zealand one."

"This IS a New Zealand one."

"No, this is an Australian one."

"Is there a difference?"

I said, "Look it up, you might learn something!" And walked away. Arrogant fucken Poms!

For this reason, I support the change.

That problem is not the flag - I predict little of that will change even if the flag does!

[Daffyd]

That problem is not the flag - I predict little of that will change even if the flag does!

You could be right John but the inference I got was that they knew the difference between Australia and New Zealand, but that the flags were too similar to tell the difference.

[Berries]

I said, "Look it up, you might learn something!" And walked away. Arrogant fucken Poms!

Why would you expect someone who lived on the opposite side of the planet to know the flag of little old New Zealand? Can you draw the Portuguese flag off by heart?

That's what I don't get about the whole debate. Is it to get rid of the union jack in the corner to ditch the association with the mother country, which I completely understand, or is it simply to get some distinction from your nearest neighbour because half of your own population can't be arsed to learn the difference between the two?

[jonbuoy]

I was going to stay out of this debate, but for what it's worth, I was lucky enough to attend the 2009 British F1 GP at Silverstone, and for anyone that hasn't been to one, it's a bit like the old A & P shows in NZ. Row upon row of sideshows, thrill rides, and stalls. One such stall was selling flags so I moseyed on up and asked if they had an NZ one.

"Of course, we have all flags." And then proudly brought out an Australian one.

"No," says I, "A New Zealand one."

"This IS a New Zealand one."

"No, this is an Australian one."

"Is there a difference?"

I said, "Look it up, you might learn something!" And walked away. Arrogant fucken Poms!

For this reason, I support the change.

I´m sure he thought highly of you too. How many could tell the difference between a Syrian and Iraqi flag, Romanian and Chad? Austria and Latvia anyone? Monaco and Indonesia?

[Daffyd]

Well, I have two replies to both of you...

Firstly, They were a shop that specialised in international flags. They, of all people, should know the difference. If you walked into a motorbike shop and asked for a spare part for an R1 would you be happy if they tried to sell you the equivalent part for an R6?
Or maybe went into an appliance store to buy an LCD TV set and they tried to sell you an LED one, saying that it was an LCD?

Secondly, NZ and Australia are part of the British Commonwealth. Syria, Iraq, Romania, Chad, Latvia, Monaco. Indonesia and Portugal are not and AFAIK never have been. Besides, I did say I was from New Zealand, as did my son who was with me and they still argued that it was a New Zealand flag.

BTW I was quite polite about it; as most of my KB friends will attest, I'm not the abusive type.

[oldrider]

Is it to get rid of the union jack in the corner to ditch the association with the mother country, which I completely understand,

You are probably right!

Part of the agreement for USA intervention in WW2 - dismantling of the British Empire, on which the sun never sets! (power games Churchill lost to Roosevelt)

Simple continuation of the deal/debt? - It won't be long before Australia is declared a republic - good bye pork pie and two more Union Jacks! all

[Banditbandit]

It won't be long before Australia is declared a republic - good by pork pie and two more Union Jacks! all

[bogan]

Stumbled across a really interesting Ted talk on city flags and good flag design. A lot of it is relevant to national flags too of course. One comment stuck out though:



https://youtu.be/pnv5iKB2hl4?t=12m55s

And then I did some research, the horrors...

[Katman]

One comment stuck out though:

Did he call you Shitforbrains?

[gjm]

I'm amazed that 10 attended given the meeting time was 7.30am the very next morning. MPs are humans too and might have wives/husbands to fuck, children to yell at, prior commitments to businesses/charities/organisations, etc.

I like how Ocean's point about $26m being a drop in the bucket went unanswered by you. Fact of the matter is $26m only seems like a lot of money for those who don't understand context.

A bit like your case about how a DHB has asked for $10m for something from Central and been told 'We don't have the money'. Ocean mentioned health spending is 15.6bn. Perhaps more telling, and what he didn't mention, is that last year (14-15) it was 15.1 bn. So perhaps your 'we don't have the money' should be rephrased as 'We already gave you more money, what did you do with it?'

But tell me more about how the National govt and JK are a bunch of cunts despite increasing health spending half a bill.
Oh and increasing education spending .2 bill.
And increased spending in both, in 14-15, compared with 13-14.

And for the record, I didn't even vote for em, I just get grumpy when people cherry-pick things they see as a minus and ignore everything else.

Apologies for my delayed reply. Been a bit busy.

I don't regard $26m as a 'drop in a bucket'. I've responded to this comment (or very similar ones) many times. Anyone who considers $26m unimportant could pass a few million to me. No-one would notice, eh?
Compared to the NZ GDP, national debt, or many other things, $26m represents a very small percentage. However, it is still a very significant amount of money.

Government spending on health. This is something I know more than most about. In real terms health spending has dropped year on year. Increased costs due to an older population, increased immigration, lack of investment in healthcare infrastructure - all have taken a toll. A South Island DHB was taken to task for mismanagement of budget; what wasn't made clear was that they had stabilised their budget, weren't incurring additional losses, and were actually in a better position than several other larger DHBs. That doesn't make a good headline, and doesn't let the government look like they're trying to do something.

The DHB [edit: I work for] needs an extra $30m (another drop in that bucket) to maintain standards and services from last year, but are expected to actually save in numerical (never mind real) terms, while improving services to an increased population.

Health Minister Jonathan Coleman has ordered DHBs to find $163.5 million in ‘efficiencies’. That’s Coleman speak for ‘cuts’, although he's called them ‘reprioritisations’. I suppose, given $26m is 'a drop in a bucket' that a little over $20m per DHB is insignificant and easily found.
This follows $1.7 billion cut from the health budget over six years since National’s been in Government. Health staff are owed close to $500 million in holidays, with many due more than four weeks of leave but unable to take it. Imagine the impact of paying out that overdue holiday.

The list of things $26m could have been better spent on is endless, and there is absolutely no way that $26m would have addressed all the financial ills of NZ. The actual cost of changing the flag is estimated at nearly as much again (how many drops make up a whole bucket?) - is that also money well spent?

If you are in any doubt as to how far a drop in a bucket can go, visit your local DHB or social services office, and ask what they could do with $1.3m. That's how much each DHB could have received. It certainly wouldn't have solved everything (as I've always said) but it would have been money well-spent, contributing to improvements in many people's lives.

Equally, I'm sure that there are plenty of things to point fingers at to show poor budgeting, planning, or expenditure in all walks of life, not least the health service. Taking money away is hardly going to change that.

Unfortunately we live in a world where spending $1000 to save $1m is welcome, but spending $100000 to save $10m is frowned on.

I have no issue with people wanting to change the flag. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My gripe is with the expenditure, and the way the process is now being run. The government was facilitating a referendum so the NZ public could make an informed decision. That same government is now actively campaigning for a change. Guess who is paying for that?


[ Edited for clarification in the line starting 'The DHB.' ]

[bogan]

Apologies for my delayed reply. Been a bit busy.

I don't regard $26m as a 'drop in a bucket'. I've responded to this comment (or very similar ones) many times. Anyone who considers $26m unimportant could pass a few million to me. No-one would notice, eh?
Compared to the NZ GDP, national debt, or many other things, $26m represents a very small percentage. However, it is still a very significant amount of money.

Government spending on health. This is something I know more than most about. In real terms health spending has dropped year on year. Increased costs due to an older population, increased immigration, lack of investment in healthcare infrastructure - all have taken a toll. A South Island DHB was taken to task for mismanagement of budget; what wasn't made clear was that they had stabilised their budget, weren't incurring additional losses, and were actually in a better position than several other larger DHBs. That doesn't make a good headline, and doesn't let the government look like they're trying to do something.

The DHB needs an extra $30m (another drop in that bucket) to maintain standards and services from last year, but are expected to actually save in numerical (never mind real) terms, while improving services to an increased population.

Health Minister Jonathan Coleman has ordered DHBs to find $163.5 million in ‘efficiencies’. That’s Coleman speak for ‘cuts’, although he's called them ‘reprioritisations’. I suppose, given $26m is 'a drop in a bucket' that a little over $20m per DHB is insignificant and easily found.
This follows $1.7 billion cut from the health budget over six years since National’s been in Government. Health staff are owed close to $500 million in holidays, with many due more than four weeks of leave but unable to take it. Imagine the impact of paying out that overdue holiday.

The list of things $26m could have been better spent on is endless, and there is absolutely no way that $26m would have addressed all the financial ills of NZ. The actual cost of changing the flag is estimated at nearly as much again (how many drops make up a while bucket?) - is that also money well spent?

If you are in any doubt as to how far a drop in a bucket can go, visit your local DHB or social services office, and ask what they could do with $1.3m. That's how much each DHB could have received. It certainly wouldn't have solved everything (as I've always said) but it would have been money well-spent, contributing to improvements in many people's lives.

Equally, I'm sure that there are plenty of things to point fingers at to show poor budgeting, planning, or expenditure in all walks of life, not least the health service. Taking money away is hardly going to change that.

Unfortunately we live in a world where spending $1000 to save $1m is welcome, but spending $100000 to save $10m is frowned on.

I have no issue with people wanting to change the flag. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My gripe is with the expenditure, and the way the process is now being run. The government was facilitating a referendum so the NZ public could make an informed decision. That same government is now actively campaigning for a change. Guess who is paying for that?

So, as Erelyes mentioned, they already increased it by half a billion, do you not understand the concept of budgeting or something? Or do you just think your decision is somehow worth more than those who wish to democratically determine if it is time for a flag change?

Let's get some perspective, it's 26mil, around 5% of the health spending increase last year; which is around 0.2% of the total health spending for the year. And this is not a recurring cost, it's a one off, and we all (should) know govt shouldn't be bailing out institutions who can't work a budget, so really you'd want to spread that over 10 years, so it's getting even smaller than those tiny amounts listed before.

And that doesn't even begin to account for the other services that would also have hands firmly extended; education, roading, etc. Then you've also got the financial investment types which can turn such $ into more $$ for govt use (perhaps even pay for next years DHB increases), like tourism, export, etc. Actually those last two have a little bit to do with branding, perhaps we should look at changing an icon to better represent the country and make money that way...

So what could each DHB end up doing with $5 and a bag of chips?

[Katman]

So what will be the real benefits to the country should we end up with a new flag?