Kb'ers lend me your keyboards

[caspernz]

I wonder where the labour party will get its future ministers from?

Fighting with the Green party for the dropouts at the end of the funded learning curve?

[mada]

I believe Veterinary Science is longer.

(Although I suppose it could be claimed that it's still to do with medicine).

Yeh it used to be the same length of time (5 years) in the old days. Vet's are still 5 years at Massey.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/learn...?prog_id=92611

Medicine now though is 6 years minimum.The first year is not really a "year of medicine". It involves a foundation of Chemistry, Biomedicine etc, but is used to academically filter people wanting to get into medicine - because Auckland Uni alone has 1,300 people each year trying to get a place. If you do well enough and pass interviews you are given a spot on the medical programme and officially start your medical degree in your second year.

Postgrad's who get entry into second year only have to do "5 years" if they have completed the first year core papers in biomedicine, chemistry, etc in their undergraduate degree. If they haven't completed these they will need to complete them (takes 1 year) so end up doing 6 years.

https://www.auckland.ac.nz/study-opt...-surgery-mbchb

While we are making a big stink about medicine, it's because we are the larger group affected but we do hope that other fields such as Dentistry, Veterinary Science, Pharmacy can be subject to an exemption too as they also receive high numbers of skilled postgraduates.

And to clarify all these degrees are subject to the cap because they are "Undergraduate".

If a student was to complete a Bachelor of Science majoring in Physiology, they could spend a further 7 years undertaking Postgraduate, Masters, and PhD study - they would not be affected by the cap as studying Postgraduate upwards allows a cap at 10 years.

[mada]

Playing devil's advocate here, whatever happened to people living with the consequences of their decisions.

It seems to me students don't quite grasp the expense of what they are getting into. I mean, at Otago, teaching is $5,162.00 per 1EFTS. Not including course related costs. It's all to easy to go 'chuck it on the student loan and lets go down to the liquor shop LOL'. I have done just that. It's all to easy to assume that responsibility for that debt will kick in once you find a job and not before.

If you spend two years studying it and have used over $10,000 of money that isn't even yours yet, if you decide that's not what you wanna do any more, that's no-one else's fault. It's something you have to deal with. Maybe that might mean repaying a student loan for study which doesn't really benefit your job prospects in any way.

I mean, yes, the State has a responsibility to help students study who can't afford it themselves. But it sounds like a limited number of people get into these courses in any case. So the question should be: Should someone who has wanted to do med their entire lives, miss out because of someone else who only just figured it out 1.5 years into a teaching degree?

In a more holistic sense, perhaps the problem is that work experience for students deep into a med degree is gratis. Probably due to the shitty funding of the healthcare system. Once someone is in their 5th year of med, I think it's safe to say they don't mind dead bodies and that is particularly when the State should be getting them over the line so they can get doctoring. And part of that might be actually paying them for the work experience they do, so they can start putting a dent into their student loan (and not eating noodles for every meal).

Yeh like I said there is merit to a cap. And Students are well aware of the costs, to get into medicine you cant be someone who is mucking around at Uni.

You can't actually get into medicine if you have partially completed a degree in something else (so the teacher example is flawed). In that case the person would need to graduate as a teacher, and have high enough grades to get selected for an interview. If they were good in the interview they would get a "provisional place" subject to completing some chem, bio, papers etc.

The majority of students we are talking about are ones who have completed qualifications that are highly relevant to medicine practically - Bachelor in Science Physiology & Anatomy, Microbiology, etc. These degrees take 3 years, 4 years if one is really switched on and does Honours.

They can study and get student loans for another 7 years! - but only if they do postgraduate, masters, or PhD.

30% of all students are postgrad. So you are looking at 100s potentially up to 1000 students by 2017/2018 affected. Multiple that 1000 by the $50,000 that the taxpayer invests in each one of us per year of study = how much taxpayers money will be wasted if these students cant afford to pay the fees and then graduate.

The problem with paying us for our work experience in 5th year and 6th years is that it is weekly over the year, whereas fees need to be paid upfront at the start of the year.

[Banditbandit]

Multiple that 1000 by the $50,000 that the taxpayer invests in each one of us per year of study = how much taxpayers money will be wasted if these students cant afford to pay the fees and then graduate.

It's not that much for all degrees. Many are around the $11,000 to $12,000 per year ... Science and medicine are funded at higher rates ...

You can see this year's Government funding rates by discipline area here.

http://www.tec.govt.nz/Resource-Cent...funding-rates/

Add to that Student Fees (which are initially funded by the taxpayer) and you get the amount that each institute gets. Fees vary from institute to institute ..

[mada]

Yes, 7yrs Vs 5yrs.
But... then the doctors claim they then have to "specialize" after the 5yrs.



I wonder where the labour party will get its future ministers from?

Close, vets = 5 years (but 7 years in some circumstances if they are international students).

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/learn...n#entrant-type

Med students = 6 years minimum (refer to other post). One does not even begin to think of "specialising" until they have graduated and have worked for a number of years in hospitals. Each speciality requires you to undertake different on the job training ("runs") in different fields while in the hospital.

It usually takes about 9 - 15 years of working to become a specialist!

[Banditbandit]

Add to the issue the number of people who leave school early and then come back to tertiary education later in life. They frequently go into the bridging courses, that can take up to one year of study, then if they pass everything on a degree first time round they will have completed their degree in four years, using up four of their allocated seven EFTS. If they fail something and have to repeat, they could have used five EFTS or more.

That lets them only two or three years for any post grad or other study they might want to do.

[mada]

It's not that much for all degrees. Many are around the $11,000 to $12,000 per year ... Science and medicine are funded at higher rates ...

You can see this year's Government funding rates by discipline area here.

http://www.tec.govt.nz/Resource-Cent...funding-rates/

Add to that Student Fees (which are initially funded by the taxpayer) and you get the amount that each institute gets. Fees vary from institute to institute ..

Cheers for that link.

Med 2 and 3 year = $36,139 per year

Med 4 year up to 6th year = $42,622 per year. - this is where most postgrad students will meet their cap.

So if I did a 4 year BSc (with honours) then began studying medicine (entered into 2 year). My 4th year would be the last year I could borrow. The government would have subsidised me by $100,000+ for medicine alone (2nd year + 3rd year + 4thyear), and my student loan from medicine alone would be $45,000 (each year we pay about $15,000 in fees).

Total cost to taxpayer = $145,000 if student doesn't graduate and excludes previous degree.

[Akzle]

I have a Med student at home here... psychology degree

lmfao.

med ≠ psy

[Swoop]

Close, vets = 5 years (but 7 years in some circumstances if they are international students).

Close. Kiwi born and bred, straight A student completing a vet degree (via Massey). 7 years.

[mada]

Close. Kiwi born and bred, straight A student completing a vet degree (via Massey). 7 years.

Good on ya,
You sure you not getting confused between undergraduate degree and then post graduate that may follow? - post grad study is not affected by 7EFTS and is capped at 10EFTS.

http://www.massey.ac.nz/massey/learn...ab=plan#phases

As everything on the Massey website says 5 years undergrad (including semester 1 selection). (maybe their changing it?)

Would be keen to know as I have some friends (not studying) who are considering getting into it.

[mashman]

Playing devil's advocate here, whatever happened to people living with the consequences of their decisions.

It seems to me students don't quite grasp the expense of what they are getting into. I mean, at Otago, teaching is $5,162.00 per 1EFTS. Not including course related costs. It's all to easy to go 'chuck it on the student loan and lets go down to the liquor shop LOL'. I have done just that. It's all to easy to assume that responsibility for that debt will kick in once you find a job and not before.

If you spend two years studying it and have used over $10,000 of money that isn't even yours yet, if you decide that's not what you wanna do any more, that's no-one else's fault. It's something you have to deal with. Maybe that might mean repaying a student loan for study which doesn't really benefit your job prospects in any way.

I mean, yes, the State has a responsibility to help students study who can't afford it themselves. But it sounds like a limited number of people get into these courses in any case. So the question should be: Should someone who has wanted to do med their entire lives, miss out because of someone else who only just figured it out 1.5 years into a teaching degree?

In a more holistic sense, perhaps the problem is that work experience for students deep into a med degree is gratis. Probably due to the shitty funding of the healthcare system. Once someone is in their 5th year of med, I think it's safe to say they don't mind dead bodies and that is particularly when the State should be getting them over the line so they can get doctoring. And part of that might be actually paying them for the work experience they do, so they can start putting a dent into their student loan (and not eating noodles for every meal).

Sweet...

Shooting oneself in the foot/cutting nose off to spite face/not having anyone to diagnose herpes/insert medical punalogy of choice?

Fair enough. True in regards to not understanding the value of money and what it gits ya. See above though, from the perspective of students going to uni fully expecting that in order to really afford it and be of responsible benefit to the cuntry, they will stop enjoying themselves, booze/fags/hookers etc... whilst they study for 7 years? Yeuk. (then 5 years, then 2, then human robots heh heh heh).

It's a shit pressure to have. See above, from the perspective of, fucking your shit up shit can happen at any time and having $ troubles lumped on top of that's really fuckin brutal. That and it may prevent the learning that was gained from being added to when shit is unfucked again... see above?

It is a harsh reality that there will be negative effects on individuals and potentially on wider society when there are cutbacks going on. Trickle down. Question: Would you choose to risk losing the money or choose to risk losing the person (wider concept: hope, will, drive etc...) and knowledge?

[ruaphu]

Done the petition, nice one mada.

My two cents
It's just another block in the wall to separate the 'have everythings' from the 'have nots'

Basically this is how I interpret the BS the minister is actually saying here .........

"If ya got the cash, all cool. However if ya don't, then fuck off"

Knowledge economy my R'se.

It's discrimination in disguise at the end if the day as far as I'm concerned.

Have a nice day ya'll


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[Swoop]

Good on ya,

No, not me! I've turned down two degree courses.

A friends kid has done the Vet training.

[Drew]

Hmmm. Let them have longer loans, IF they can't work overseas for a minimum of ten years.

I hate student loans. Most don't get paid back. If I'm paying for everyone elses education now, fuck it I'd rather keep that and pay my kids fees personally.