Euthanasia

[Big Dog]

You don't know the difference.

Morals are the principles on which one’s judgments of right and wrong are based.
Morals are more abstract, subjective, and often personal or religion-based.
Ethics are principles of right conduct.
Ethics are more practical, conceived as shared principles promoting fairness in social and business interactions.

It does receive robust discussion and debate but it is a complicated subject but it is fraught, I my self I are in favour of it, but the whole legality of it needs to be correctly framed around it.

Perhaps this is a distinction that you are reading to thinly?

Ethics are very complicated an often legislated. That does not proclude you from having other ethical barriers from your moral beliefs.


Just because soemthing is included in law to be ethical doesnt make it moral.
Just because something is inlcuded in law to be ethical doesnt make it ethical either.

[Katman]

Why do you not answer the question? Does it not suit your agenda?

What the fuck has my business got to do with euthanasia?

(Other than your first choice obviously).

[FJRider]

... Morals are the principles on which one’s judgments of right and wrong are based.
Morals are more abstract, subjective, and often personal or religion-based.
Ethics are principles of right conduct.
Ethics are more practical, conceived as shared principles promoting fairness in social and business interactions.

It does receive robust discussion and debate but it is a complicated subject but it is fraught, I my self I are in favour of it, but the whole legality of it needs to be correctly framed around it.

It is not complicated at all ...

Regardless of your belief as to the ethics, morality or legality ... if you are prepared to take responsibility for your actions and possible ramifications ... all good .. eh .. !!!

[Erelyes]

The common-denominator-relevance is that once a group decides that a particular habit or practice or lifestyle (whether being gay, sitting legs apart, no baking for gay weddings) shall be not only allowed or required but the allowance or requirement enforced - because they = the biens-pensants know what's best for the rest of us - and get the full force of the Government to enforce their intolerance, then everything can be made mandatory and punishable. And punishable by up to and including death.

One wonders if, upon the ushering in of the practice of kidney transplants, people were worried that they would be forced to donate a kidney if so required by the State.

You're presuming that the practice of euthanasia will become not just an 'alternative possibility', but a mandate. Not so.

(BTW: I've got nothing against gay people contracting a lifelong relationship, although I would prefer they used their own word rather than marriage - which has for a very long time meant a unique partnership between man and woman.

Fair opinion. That said, once upon a time, 'having sex' referred soley to the act between man and wife (indeed, marriage was required). To some, 'Bully' is an adjective. The meaning of words changes.

[Katman]

One wonders if, upon the ushering in of the practice of kidney transplants, people were worried that they would be forced to donate a kidney if so required by the State.

You're presuming that the practice of euthanasia will become not just an 'alternative possibility', but a mandate. Not so.



Fair opinion. That said, once upon a time, 'having sex' referred soley to the act between man and wife (indeed, marriage was required). To some, 'Bully' is an adjective. The meaning of words changes.

It doesn't take a fucking rocket surgeon, does it?

[husaberg]

Perhaps this is a distinction that you are reading to thinly?

Ethics are very complicated an often legislated. That does not proclude you from having other ethical barriers from your moral beliefs.


Just because soemthing is included in law to be ethical doesnt make it moral.
Just because something is inlcuded in law to be ethical doesnt make it ethical either.

Like I said you clearly don't know the difference.

It is not complicated at all ...

Regardless of your belief as to the ethics, morality or legality ... if you are prepared to take responsibility for your actions and possible ramifications ... all good .. eh .. !!!

yeah not really at all

[husaberg]

What the fuck has my business got to do with euthanasia?

(Other than your first choice obviously).

A bit precious aren't we, I note you still haven't answered the question though on the third or is it 4th occasion.

It doesn't take a fucking rocket surgeon, does it?

Leaves you out then aye. Got anymore free energy hoax's that we should all buy into for free.
That the government and big oil and the Jews are keeping quiet from us.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ternative-fuel

[gjm]

I spent some time this afternoon reading through the background to the decisions made.

Leaving aside any personal feelings on the matter, the judge was correct. He made a ruling in accordance with the law as it stands. The law may be an ass, but it is still the law and the judge's duty is to rule accordingly. There's no room in the ruling for emotion or opinion.

Should the law be changed? Personally, and based on my experience, I think there should be provision for assistance in some circumstances. I think 'Right to Life' is wrong... In some cases. Any provision in law for assistance should obviously also protect those who are vulnerable, and RtL seem to think that wouldn't happen. Maybe they're right, but I hope not.

[Big Dog]

A bit precious aren't we, I note you still haven't answered the question though on the third or is it 4th occasion.


Leaves you out then aye. Got anymore free energy hoax's that we should all buy into for free.
That the government and big oil and the Jews are keeping quiet from us.
http://www.kiwibiker.co.nz/forums/sh...ternative-fuel

And this is why I believe this topic never really gets a fair shake at open and robust discussion.
It is such an emotive position people quickly stake their claim and then proceed to misinterpret or just plain ignore the other side. It descends into pedantry about the differences between irrelevant bits instead of looking at it with an open mind and then sooner or later it ends up in the too hard basket until someone else raises the topic.

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't care about the difference between morality and ethics in the context of this discussion because I am not sufficiently informed about medical ethics to comment.

I do know when the respective times came for my brother, mother and father the question was never will they die or even will they ever leave the hospital. The question was how much must they suffer before it is over?
How long do we keep them alive artificially and suffering, knowing there is no hope?

All I know 100%:
I am glad they died different years.
I am glad none of them asked me to end it.
I am glad the doctors took their comfort over their longevity.
I am not looking forward to the day some time soon (it will be within the next five years) when another brother will go into palliative care.
I am not looking forward to the day in 10-20 years that the same happens to my sister.

Cancer took my parents.
Muscular dystrophy is taking my siblings.
I see the way my brother and sister look at me. The only healthy one.



Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[Erelyes]

The doctor's views on abortion are therefore considered to be irrelevant and he or she is compelled to provide the service. This element of compulsion allows no room for personal ethics.

I agree compelling someone to act as an executioner is repugnant.

Here is the crux of the whole fucking thread, i.e., that the anti-euthenasia arguments are difficult to understand. See post #1.

Namely, I simply don't understand why those with anti-euthanasia views, claim that those in favour want to 'force' doctors to kill people.

That isn't the fucking case, I don't think anyone has said it is, and by bringing in a straw-man argument, you start looking like zealots.

Our state gives citizens the opportunity to defend it via military service, yet it does not compel those whose code of ethics prohibit it.
Our state gives doctors the opportunity to perform abortions, yet it does not compel those whose code of ethics prohibit it. (Note - getting another doctor to do it is not compelling the original doctor. I really hope you understand this.)
All that pro-euth arguers are asking for is the exact fucking same. And it's simple. Add the right for it to be done, whilst still upholding the right to not have to do it.

P.S. Even I would fight tooth and nail against any legislation that would 'force' you to assist someone's death.

As would I. There's nothing more that grinds my gears, than cunts that complain about their neighbour flying a foreign flag, putting a Buddha statue in their yard, or otherwise exercising their right to hold a different view than the status quo. "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" (E. Hall).

So now, can we all agree on what we actually want, and those who are anti-euth stick to the fuckin' argument as it stands rather than driving it off a cliff?

Things are really black and white which is why Katmaam has trouble with what is a complicated topic not fitting his own over simplistic views.

So you're saying things are black and white, yet his views are simplistic? Righto bud

[husaberg]

And this is why I believe this topic never really gets a fair shake at open and robust discussion.
It is such an emotive position people quickly stake their claim and then proceed to misinterpret or just plain ignore the other side. It descends into pedantry about the differences between irrelevant bits instead of looking at it with an open mind and then sooner or later it ends up in the too hard basket until someone else raises the topic.

I don't know what the answer is, and I don't care about the difference between morality and ethics in the context of this discussion because I am not sufficiently informed about medical ethics to comment.

.

The simple difference with morality and ethics is if someone is ordered or obligated to take a life ergo ethics can override ones morality.
Katmams will not answer the question about whether he has a retail part of his shop as he then leaves himself open to, do you feel that you are entitled to deny to serve someone.
To which he will reply fuck yes i will serve who I please.
Then someone will say but you can't say you can do this, Yet at the same time a marriage celebrant or a florist or a baker can made to sell or do a service they don't wish to.
After all he says a doctor can't be forced to euthanise someone yet he can't see how this same will occur.
Then later says this.

Bullshit - yet again.
Your job is to do the best for your patient.
If that patient is terminally ill and very near death you have nothing to offer that patient other than their choice of death.

Everyone's morality is different like I said I believe it should be an option but needs extremely careful consideration.
Katmams always bleating on about how many innocent people are sent to jail or put on death row yet, does not the medical establishment also make mistakes with both diagnosis and prognosis.

[husaberg]

So you're saying things are black and white, yet his views are simplistic? Righto bud

Rarely black and white autocorrect kind of miffed it dude..
I meant things are rarely black and white..........
I think you should have a re read of the post to see.

[Big Dog]

The simple difference with morality and ethics is if someone is ordered or obligated to take a life ergo ethics can override ones morality.
Katmams will not answer the question about whether he has a retail part of his shop as he then leaves himself open to, do you feel that you are entitled to deny to serve someone.
To which he will reply fuck yes i will serve who I please.
Then someone will say but you can't say you can do this, Yet at the same time a marriage celebrant or a florist or a baker can made to sell or do a service they don't wish to.
After all he says a doctor can't be forced to euthanise someone yet he can't see how this same will occur.

Everyone's morality is different like I said I believe it should be an option but needs extremely careful consideration.
Katmams always bleating on about how many innocent people are sent to jail or put on death row yet odes not the medical establishment also make mistakes with both diagnosis and prognosis

Yes, when your gazing upon your father who was athletic and active six months ago now looking like a survivor of Auschwitz there is no doubt prognosis is at least close.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

[husaberg]

Yes, when your gazing upon your father who was athletic and active six months ago now looking like a survivor of Auschwitz there is no doubt prognosis is at least close.


Stupid phone / Tapatalk, apologies in advance.

I am well acquainted with palliative care yet I am also mindfull as soon as the door is open it is the thin end of the wedge.
If you go back through my posts you will see I are in favour of it.
It just need to be implemented in a careful manner so it does not open Pandora's box.

[Katman]

The simple difference with morality and ethics is if someone is ordered or obligated to take a life ergo ethics can override ones morality.
Katmams will not answer the question about whether he has a retail part of his shop as he then leaves himself open to, do you feel that you are entitled to deny to serve someone.
To which he will reply fuck yes i will serve who I please.
Then someone will say but you can't say you can do this, Yet at the same time a marriage celebrant or a florist or a baker can made to sell or do a service they don't wish to.
After all he says a doctor can't be forced to euthanise someone yet he can't see how this same will occur.

Everyone's morality is different like I said I believe it should be an option but needs extremely careful consideration.
Katmams always bleating on about how many innocent people are sent to jail or put on death row yet odes not the medical establishment also make mistakes with both diagnosis and prognosis

You still haven't sought any help, have you?