Euthanasia

[Katman]

It depends on how you interpret the Hippocratic oath.

What does "Do no Harm" mean?

Perhaps you don't know the Hippocratic Oath as well as you think you do.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html

[TheDemonLord]

Perhaps you don't know the Hippocratic Oath as well as you think you do.

https://www.nlm.nih.gov/hmd/greek/greek_oath.html

Bit of an own-goal there:

I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked, nor will I advise such a plan;

[Katman]

Bit of an own-goal there:

Not really, because I don't believe that something written nearly 2500 years ago should be immune to amendment over time.

[TheDemonLord]

Not really, because I don't believe that something written nearly 2500 years ago should be immune to amendment over time.

It seems that what was written is entirely relevant to today, regardless of age, since it's dealing with the same fundamental issue.

What's more - it predates the Christian concept of sanctity of life, so it seems at least that there was a rationale for prohibiting it and that we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

[Katman]

It seems that what was written is entirely relevant to today, regardless of age, since it's dealing with the same fundamental issue.

What's more - it predates the Christian concept of sanctity of life, so it seems at least that there was a rationale for prohibiting it and that we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss it.

I'm not suggesting we dismiss it.

I'm suggesting that there's room for amendment/interpretation in a 2500 year old oath.

After all, you yourself said it depends on how we interpret it.

[Paul in NZ]

Just jumping back in around Hippocratic oaths and so on....

OK - so a doctor takes an oath to do no harm etc.... Fucking bullshit... Oh OK they wont actually put the knife in BUT they will simply walk away from an issue because its too hard, theres no known cure and (most importantly of all) - theres no funding..

Now these examples are 100% real and recent...

My case - I asked for a PSA test... Oh fuck.... Go in for the biopsy which the surgeon totally fucked up because he wanted to try a new procedure so he had a bit of an extra poke around.... Post op the surgeon didnt want to see me so he got his nurse to do it... Bad news - you have cancer (again) - good news is we think we got it early (fuck off you did I asked for the bloody test). Now after the procedure you migh get a bit of bleeding... as an engineer I'm thinking a 'bit' isnt a number or amount so what is a bit? 2 nights in a row I wake up with the sheets drenched in blood - literally like someone slaughter a lamb in my lap and needing fresh sheets at 2am... WTF - so I ring the surgeon - I get the nurse.... her explanation - well now you know what its like to be a woman.......

OK - so i have prostate cancer and of the 2 surgeons in WGN who do this privately - ones right off my fuckin christmas card list...

So come the actual op - I go with the guy who did my previous testicular cancer job. hes a funny bastard - I tell him I'm amazed he doesnt remember me as no other man has ever had my testicles in his hands... he didnt even blink but assured me hes VERY promiscuous like that... Oh how we laughed...

So - before the OP - we have the discussion re possible complications... Look - you might end up impotent (its a big word meaning you cant get a stiffy) but dont worry we are a full service operation and we got ya back bro (turns out he meant until the check cleared)..

I have the operation... I wake up - 13 tubes hanging out of me... 1 day later he fronts and - well - erm - there was a LOT of scarring from the biopsy and - well 2 hours turned into 3.5 hours and... But dont worry we got ya back (I was worried) and yes - no erections so straight to plan C - caveject.... Cant put a price on love? I can - $150 for 4 injections and guess what - they either dont work OR work too well.. Fuck..

Dont worry - hes got my back right? Erm after 3 prescriptions (insanely hard to get) its politely suggested I can get this from my GP so fuck off and stop bugging me. Thankfully I find someone else that helps out with a genuine plan B and lifes OK...

OK - I'm not dead - but..... I didnt exactly get cared for either - oh - do you want to talk to someone about never getting and erection again? Yup - $175 an hour to talk to a woman who takes 2 hours to explain its natural to be upset... I mean what the actual fuck - how about a strategy here???

OK - enough of this - Vicki

We fought tooth and nail to get the initial neurology appt - like Vicki rang EVERY fucking day for 3 months to see if there was a cancellation... Eventually shes on first name terms with the receptionist. Go privately? Tried that too - her GP wouldn't even write a referral until Vicki did one of those bonkers that trump did. She scored lower than a breeze block but that wasnt important as we would redo the test in 6 months and compare - I damn near punched her face in and there was a VERY VERY pointed discussion that resulted in a referral...

So - we get our appointment....

4 hours.... Its a very difficult diagnosis BUT eventually he twigs and starts asking the right questions and reduces Vicki to a boiled cabbage - the poor thing was litterally deconstructed in front of me and reduced to a quivering sniveling wreck... (not blaming him - it was the only way to the truth) - his to post grad dr's were in tears, we were in tears it was simply horrific.... He reaches his conclusion - takes a detailed look at the scan again and - OK I think you have FTD and its advanced - I estimate you have 3 to 5 years to live and not all of these will be good years so I suggest you go home and live the best life you can - thank you its been nice to meet you and BOOM we are in the corridor

That was a pisser of a ride home!!!

Literally there has been ZERO after care... We are too young for the charities etc let along dealing with a Dx like that? Its a wonder we didnt drive off a cliff on the way home...

How can a major hospital tell someone they are a dead woman walking and just let them go - never check up - never ask 'are you ok'?

Then 6 weeks later I got my Cancer dx.. same deal... Its not breast cancer and you are a fat old white guy so fuck off...

Doctors and their oath? Fuck them they do PLENTY of harm mostly by doing fuck all to actually help people. the LAST people I would care about in this debate is their fuckin feelings or oaths

[FJRider]

Euthanasia would be carried out only with the full consent of the person who is already dying.

So no, it's not murder.

People that commit suicide ... do it with ... to use your words ... their own consent or intent to die. Not always successful I might add.

Why does it need a Doctor to carry it out .. ??? Most caregivers in such situations are well trained and capable of giving injections. Or administering any pain killing medications.

Let that caregiver end their days knowing they killed they killed their loved one. Would you be happy to do it .. ??

And the fact that you're trying to imply that it could be seen as such, exposes the disingenuous nature of your argument.

Euthanasia is a prettier word that murder. Not as hard on the mind as assisted suicide either. Both of which (as I stated in my original post) is not legal in NZ yet.

If Euthanasia is made legal ... would you support assisted suicide being seen as the same thing .. ?? Or ... in your opinion ... is it not.


The nature of MY argument is exactly as I've posted. My intent was not to imply anything. Did I not ask YOU if Euthanasia is murder (by using another nicer name) or just assisting suicide (by using another nicer name).


Euthanasia is just a legal way of killing people ... people they want dead. And getting them killed. Because (usually) they don't want to do it themselves.


Euthanasia

Noun

the painless killing of a patient suffering from an incurable and painful disease or in an irreversible coma.

Similar:

mercy killing. assisted suicide. Physician-assisted suicide. Merciful release. Happy release. Quietus

[Katman]

Euthanasia is just a legal way of killing people ... people they want dead.

Stop talking bullshit.

The Bill is about terminally ill people having the right to choose when they die and the manner in which they die.

It is not about killing a person that someone else wants dead.

[TheDemonLord]

I'm not suggesting we dismiss it.

I'm suggesting that there's room for amendment/interpretation in a 2500 year old oath.

After all, you yourself said it depends on how we interpret it.

I'm not so sure - When the Greeks wrote that, I think it's a fair assumption that it was written specifically for patients who had painful and unknown ailments who asked their physician for a means to die.

That to me doesn't seem too far removed from what this bill is ostensibly aimed at, the key difference the known vs unknown ailments part.

The Greeks reasoned that this was wrong, I think that the logical premises that they held to support such a statement are still worthy of consideration today.

I agree that there's scope for interpretation as to what constitutes doing no wrong - but I find myself drifting back to the position I held 4 years ago: Even if I support that someone so afflicted should be able to humanely choose to die, I'm still not convinced that our Legal system can have the appropriate checks and balances.

[Katman]

I'm not so sure - When the Greeks wrote that, I think it's a fair assumption that it was written specifically for patients who had painful and unknown ailments who asked their physician for a means to die.

That to me doesn't seem too far removed from what this bill is ostensibly aimed at, the key difference the known vs unknown ailments part.

The Greeks reasoned that this was wrong, I think that the logical premises that they held to support such a statement are still worthy of consideration today.

I agree that there's scope for interpretation as to what constitutes doing no wrong - but I find myself drifting back to the position I held 4 years ago: Even if I support that someone so afflicted should be able to humanely choose to die, I'm still not convinced that our Legal system can have the appropriate checks and balances.

Regardless of what the intent of the oath is, this referendum is not about the Hippocratic Oath.

There are already doctors who have expressed their willingness to assist in the process if legislation changes to allow them.

This referendum is about giving people a right - it's not about robbing doctors of anything.

[Swoop]

Euthanasia would be carried out only with the full consent of the person who is already dying.

Spot on.
Too many hand-wringers out there are misinterpreting what the specifics of this act are. Parliament has already passed it, just that Whinnie demanded this referendum.

I get why Dr's and Nurses shouldn't be tasked with euthanising people.

Here's a simple fact. They are already doing this.
Assisting in a peaceful death, with far less pain than what the patient is suffereing from.


I'm currently watching my Mother's health deteriorate rapidly in a rest home. Dignity is gone, quality of life is gone, just an "existance" now.
Not even a cognitive ability to enter into this type of end-of-life act, even if it were legal right now.

People should have the freedom of choice, while they are mentally capapble of doing so.

[Paul in NZ]

Spot on.
Too many hand-wringers out there are misinterpreting what the specifics of this act are. Parliament has already passed it, just that Whinnie demanded this referendum.


Here's a simple fact. They are already doing this.
Assisting in a peaceful death, with far less pain than what the patient is suffereing from.


I'm currently watching my Mother's health deteriorate rapidly in a rest home. Dignity is gone, quality of life is gone, just an "existance" now.
Not even a cognitive ability to enter into this type of end-of-life act, even if it were legal right now.

People should have the freedom of choice, while they are mentally capapble of doing so.

You have my sympathy and support - I certainly know which way I'm voting

[jellywrestler]

You have my sympathy and support - I certainly know which way I'm voting

I heard two words I understood from my mother in law in six years, it was just cruel, then again, this is really only for people who have something that will see them have less than six months to live, so maybe wouldn't have applied to her case.
I'm voting for it.

[onearmedbandit]

Euthanasia done right.

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/a...fHgfSJ63DBV3J8

[caseye]

Seems actual cases makes them a bit squeamish Paul, really do know which way I'm voting.
My dads 87 with a pre existing prostate condition since he was 73. He's fine, one of the lucky ones, but the dementia and the swollen ankles (probably heart issues) are there too! He's great one day, forgotten it all the next.
We've discussed this very issues many times, under the present regime,could I, would I? Honestly don't know. Referenda in this country need to be binding and acted on a whole lot sooner, than , if we get back in.
Much respect to you both mate.