Life is cheap

[Banditbandit]

But anyway ...

We now have a 14 year old boy who has illegally killed someone.

How should we deal with this child?

Remember he is still an impressionable child.

He has also grown up in appalling circumstances - quite likely surrounded by adults with long lists of convictions and whose sense of the law and of right and wrong are completely out of whack. Adults for whom a high level of violence is a common occurrence.

We could argue that the child should have known better - but how would he know that ??? His role models are appalling. His sense of "normal" is completely distorted.

Should we lock him up for life? (The maximum sentence for manslaughter is life in jail). That means he will possibly be out of jail in possibly 11 years (maybe 10) and he will be 25 years old, having spend 40% of his life (and all his adult life to that time) in jail. Even if he does not get life, he could spend a significant amount of time incarcerated, in a youth facility until he is old enough for adult jail.


When released he will be a very angry young man with a wealth of knowledge about crime, and plenty of criminal role models. He will quite likely have been exposed to deviant sex - the only sexual contact he will have had to that age. And he is likely to be a significant drug user (yes, drugs get into jail).


This is not a young man I want to see in our society in a few years time. We have the example of Junior Kurariki, who has been in and out of trouble since he was released. He was 12 years old when convicted of a killing (manslaughter).

So, we need to punish this kid for the killing. But if we accept the reality of his upbringing, then I would argue that he is entitled to a second chance and it would be much better in the long term for the community to NOT have an angry 25 year old in maybe 11 years time (or longer if he gets life with a specified non-parole period, or if he misses parole for a few years.)

He does need to be incarcerated, no question - partly as a punishment and partly as a safeguard - he's dangerous out there loose. But he also needs an education, he needs help to see that this type of behaviour is not acceptable, is very wrong - and all the things that children as supposed to learn - but he has clearly missed out on.

We are not going to turn this child around by giving him hard jail time (he won't get that until he is older anyway).

He needs support, education, assistance if we are not to produce yet another hardened criminal ... the best outcome is that he does his time and the NEVER reoffends. How do we achieve that??? (A serious question - I am interested in your thoughts on this).

[husaberg]

Hes only a kid give him a chance (sorry I paraphrased it).

So on account of his history and upbringing (which is no doubt heinous) just how many chances do we need to give him?
I also note plenty of kids are brought up in similar and worse circumstances, yet are honest and law abiding and productive members of society,
yet they get no such special preferential treatment on account of how they were mistreated by others when they were young so how is this fair?
Is your fresh start proposal sending the wrong messages.

[Crasherfromwayback]

So on account of his history and upbringing (which is no doubt heinous) just how many chances do we need to give him?
I also note plenty of kids are brought up in similar and worse circumstances, yet are honest and law abiding and productive members of society,
yet they get no such special preferential treatment on account of how they were mistreated by others when they were young so how is this fair?
Is your fresh start proposal sending the wrong messages.

Dude, yes what this nasty piece of work has done is heinous, but of course he deserves the chance to change his ways and become a decent member of society. He's 14, and has had the worst start in life.

[husaberg]

Dude, yes what this nasty piece of work has done is heinous, but of course he deserves the chance to change his ways and become a decent member of society. He's 14, and has had the worst start in life.

Fair enough, as the top line of what you quoted said but how many chances?

http://www.corrections.govt.nz/.../r...offenders.html
Young offenders referred to Child, Youth and Family (CYF) by Police are a small proportion (3.8%) of the total number of New Zealand youth aged 14 to 16 years, and the number who receive a youth court order are negligible at just 0.4% of this population group1.
A very small group of persistent young offenders are responsible for over half of the crime committed by young people, estimated to be between 40% and 60%
Also, they tend to keep offending well into their twenties and beyond.

Also what message does it send to those that don't commit such offences?

[TheDemonLord]

Said some well thought out things

The real question is: do we forgive in the hopes of rehabilitation or do we resign ourselves to the fact at Age 14 he is probably now a psychopath and not fit to be a member of society?

I myself don't have enough info to make a decision either way - but there are definitely those that would say he is passed the point at which he can be rehabilitated. There are others that would say in a similar vein that our Corrections facilities aren't set up with rehabilitation in mind.

I will say this - even assuming he was rehabilitated to the best of our ability, I can't forsee him being a great and productive member of society whereas if he was never to see the light of day again, I don't see society being any poorer for it.

But that is because I am a callous cynic.

[husaberg]

The real question is: do we forgive in the hopes of rehabilitation or do we resign ourselves to the fact at Age 14 he is probably now a psychopath and not fit to be a member of society?

I myself don't have enough info to make a decision either way - but there are definitely those that would say he is passed the point at which he can be rehabilitated. There are others that would say in a similar vein that our Corrections facilities aren't set up with rehabilitation in mind.

I will say this - even assuming he was rehabilitated to the best of our ability, I can't forsee him being a great and productive member of society whereas if he was never to see the light of day again, I don't see society being any poorer for it.

But that is because I am a callous cynic.

I just had a look at the Re-imprisonment rates: "first-timers" and "recidivists.
The figures don't look great.
If we assume he is Male and a youth violence offender under 20 and if he is also Maori.(I have no idea if he is or isn't or care either way but if he is that effects the % considerably if he is)

http://www.corrections.govt.nz/resou...cidivists.html

The first pathway is known as the life-course persistent offender. These individuals exhibit severe behaviour problems from a very early age, sometimes as young as two years old. Their lives have been marked by multiple adverse influences including family dysfunction. As children they may have exhibited subtle cognitive deficiencies, difficult temperament or hyperactivity. When compounded by adverse environmental factors such as inadequate parenting, exposure to violence or other trauma, disrupted family bonds or poverty, their brain developmental processes responsible for social behaviour have been adversely impacted6.

Life-course persistent offenders are sometimes described as having "conduct disorder". They may be aggressive, oppositional and violent. They often lack feelings of guilt, remorse, or victim empathy, and tend to be egocentric seekers of immediate gratification, who do not think about consequences. If left untreated, these behaviours escalate over the whole life span. It is apparent from the experience of the Youth Court, that 82% of this group of life-course-persistent offenders are male, at least 50% are Māori, up to 80% are not engaged with school, up to 75-80% have drug or alcohol problems. Psychological and psychiatric issues are also common.
http://www.justice.govt.nz/courts/yo...we-do-about-it

Maybe a better use of resources is recognising the problem causing few and isolating them at a early age. Sad but maybe true.

[Banditbandit]

Fair enough, as the top line of what you quoted said but how many chances?

One chance ...

Also what message does it send to those that don't commit such offences?

What do you mean by the question? I am not suggesting he is NOT incarcerated.

The real question is: do we forgive in the hopes of rehabilitation or do we resign ourselves to the fact at Age 14 he is probably now a psychopath and not fit to be a member of society?

We can't resign ourselves YET to the possibility that he is not a fit member of society - he's only 14.

IF we put stuff in place and then he still fucks up .. then he's a lost cause .

I will say this - even assuming he was rehabilitated to the best of our ability, I can't forsee him being a great and productive member of society whereas if he was never to see the light of day again, I don't see society being any poorer for it.

But that is because I am a callous cynic.

I have seen young people turn their lives around - even older adults. A couple of my friends have done time for murder - and they have never been convicted of anything since leaving prison. One of them now runs his own butcher's shop and employs staff. But I would also add that I have other friends who have done jail time over and over again - so long that I don't even know if they are still alive today.

I have a close friend who's 'rap sheet" runs to three pages - includes significant jail time (ex-Mob Prez) - he hasn't been in court since 1988.

We can't predict the future - we can just aim for the best outcome. If that fails, then this kid is history.

I just had a look at the Re-imprisonment rates: "first-timers" and "recidivists.
The figures don't look great.
If we assume he is Male and a youth violence offender under 20 and if he is also Maori.(I have no idea if he is or isn't or care either way but if he is that effects the % considerably)

http://www.corrections.govt.nz/resou...cidivists.html

I looked at those stats. He has about a one in three chance of going back to jail when he is released ..

The re-imprisonment rate of these first-timers is 30 percent;

For Maori offenders it's 37% - so a little worse than two out of three chances of not going back to jail - but fuck all more.

[Katman]

I myself don't have enough info to make a decision either way.....

Fuck dude, this is Kiwibiker. When has having all the info ever mattered?

Go for gold.

[husaberg]

One chance ...

We can't predict the future - we can just aim for the best outcome. If that fails, then this kid is history.

..

Happy with that, but what if he has actually already had that?

I looked at those stats. He has about a one in three chance of going back to jail when he is released ..

I don't agree with how you interrupted the stats BB, remember the figures compound with age sex offence type, ethnicity and past offending as a youth.
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/resou...cidivists.html
Its already at 50% just because he is under 20 for a start.

I have a close friend who's 'rap sheet" runs to three pages - includes significant jail time (ex-Mob Prez) - he hasn't been in court since 1988.

We can't predict the future -

.

Out of interest how old is he now?

[Katman]

A couple of my friends have done time for murder - and they have never been convicted of anything since leaving prison. One of them now runs his own butcher's shop and employs staff.

He's probably just better at disposing of the bodies now.

[TheDemonLord]

He's probably just better at disposing of the bodies now.

"You think that's Wild Pork you are eating?"

[Crasherfromwayback]

Fair enough, as the top line of what you quoted said but how many chances?

Also what message does it send to those that don't commit such offences?

Well, I guess a lot depends of how his rehabilitation goes, as far as what sort of go he's given when he gets out. My GF is a parole officer, and hearing some of her work stories makes for a sad story. A lot of these people do want to change their ways, but simply don't know how to go about it, or aren't armed with the necessary tools to be able to do so. It's a pretty fine balancing act.

[Banditbandit]

Happy with that, but what if he has actually already had that?



I don't agree with how you interrupted the stats BB, remember the figures compound with age sex offence type, ethnicity and past offending as a youth.
http://www.corrections.govt.nz/resou...cidivists.html
Its already at 50% just because he is under 20 for a start.

I'm not sure you can compound it like that ...

But that doesn't negate the idea that he needs his chance ...

Out of interest how old is he now?

I have no idea ... I suspect his late 50s ...

He used to lie about his age so many times I'm not sure he even knows ..

[Banditbandit]

He's probably just better at disposing of the bodies now.

That's a bit cynical ... and if you're in ChCh good chance you know one of my friends who did time for murder ...

[husaberg]

I'm not sure you can compound it like that ...

But that doesn't negate the idea that he needs his chance ...

Of course you can compound risk factors, As I see it, its just like insurance.

ie life insurance is age, sex, weight, ethnicity, smoking history, past health issues they factor in all the risks and weigh each one up.
Thus you need to weigh up all the factors to arrive at the probability.
I am not negating a second chance but as I said he may have already had it.

I have no idea ... I suspect his late 50s ...
He used to lie about his age so many times I'm not sure he even knows ..

So your mate could have just got smarter with age? either at coving his offending or may have just wised up that the consequences were not worth the risk.
Serious Offending does tend down with age after all.

Well, I guess a lot depends of how his rehabilitation goes, as far as what sort of go he's given when he gets out. My GF is a parole officer, and hearing some of her work stories makes for a sad story. A lot of these people do want to change their ways, but simply don't know how to go about it, or aren't armed with the necessary tools to be able to do so. It's a pretty fine balancing act.

Yes but a significant proportion of the few (that are responsible for most of the serious offending) have no intention of ever changing at all (due to antisocial disorder proclivity ie psychopathy).
These are the ones that need to be identified quickly and locked away.