Life is cheap

[Maha]

That's a bit cynical ... and if you're in ChCh good chance you know one of my friends who did time for murder ...

He's in Taupo and has his own little band of bad ares's to talk dirty with.

[mada]

Well, I guess a lot depends of how his rehabilitation goes, as far as what sort of go he's given when he gets out. My GF is a parole officer, and hearing some of her work stories makes for a sad story. A lot of these people do want to change their ways, but simply don't know how to go about it, or aren't armed with the necessary tools to be able to do so. It's a pretty fine balancing act.

I recall hearing about Bailey Junior Kurariki not actually being able to get onto certain rehabilitation programs because he was under 18 and they were for "adults only". Hopefully this has changed. I'm sure the media hounding him after he got out, really helped with attempts to get him integrating back into the community.

There have been similar issues with 17 year old homeless teenagers not being able to get any help for shelter - as they weren't 18+ they were not allowed to stay at men's shelters, but on the flip side because they were older than 16 CYF's and Social Development didn't give a toss for helping them.

Lots of holes in NZ when it comes to appropriately responding to at risk youth.

[Crasherfromwayback]

Lots of holes in NZ when it comes to appropriately responding to at risk youth.

A lot of cracks for all sorts of down and out people to fall through here unfortunately. But hey, we'll just keep cutting funding and the help avail. She'll be right! Just as National look to sell off the services of care of such people to the banks etc etc eh.

[jasonu]

IF we put stuff in place and then he still fucks up .. then he's a lost cause .

Except if he fucks up again another dairy owner might be dead. Try explaining that to his/her family...

[MD]

But anyway ...

We now have a 14 year old boy who has illegally killed someone.

How should we deal with this child? ....

We are not going to turn this child around by giving him hard jail time (he won't get that until he is older anyway).

He needs support, education, assistance if we are not to produce yet another hardened criminal ... the best outcome is that he does his time and the NEVER reoffends. How do we achieve that??? (A serious question - I am interested in your thoughts on this).

You have to consider the purpose of imprisonment- to protect society from a harmful person AND to act as a deterrent to prevent others committing such harm. For me there can be no exceptions because that nullifies the message.
The message is most important. It's simple and shouldn't be complicated and confused by bringing in circumstances and excuses, such as alcohol or upbringing or colour or whatever.
Cut someone's throat open; they will die. You go to prison.

Once we water the sentence down, as NZ has done, the message no longer works. As our murder rate demonstrates

I see making exceptions for killers is similar to the principle of why the State should never help those that don't insure their home. The message must be clear and unwavering to work. You own something valuable, you pay for insurance. Those that choose otherwise must accept the consequences of their choice. The moment the State steps in out of best intentions and kindness, the other 98% of us that pay a bloody annoying premium year after year can all stop, we've been made fools of. The whole insurance industry collapses.

Yes this shithead might come out of prison in a worse state. But he would have learned the message; do wrong, go to prison. Letting him off lightly is not the answer and he learns the message; do wrong, and you will probably get away with it. That's not protecting the next dairy owner he comes across.

[98tls]

Dude, yes what this nasty piece of work has done is heinous, but of course he deserves the chance to change his ways and become a decent member of society. He's 14, and has had the worst start in life.

Hear ya C but theres plenty had worse starts and gone on to great things etc etc or at least lived a life without fucking up someone elses.All the talk from an endless succession of well meaning people with certificates on there office wall who have no idea but the ones they picked up in university has a very limited chance of undoing what 14 years has taught him.All the best intentions are wonderful but on numerous occasions we see it doesnt work so surely it all becomes a gamble eh...with some poor pricks life down the road.Cant say i condone as someone earlier posted "hang him" but jesus lets face it it does ensure the end of his court appearances.

[caseye]

When are e going to learn?
Have a rule, stick by it.
Waver, even once, throw out the rule and allow the criminals to run the show.

[RDJ]

You have to consider the purpose of imprisonment - to protect society from a harmful person AND to act as a deterrent to prevent others committing such harm. For me there can be no exceptions because that nullifies the message. Yes this shithead might come out of prison in a worse state. But he would have learned the message; do wrong, go to prison. Letting him off lightly is not the answer and he learns the message; do wrong, and you will probably get away with it. That's not protecting the next dairy owner he comes across.

This, repeated many times until the inhabitants of the intellectually bereft seats get it.

[TheDemonLord]

There is a quote - from Star Trek: The Next Generation that I think is very applicable to this thread:

And I say to any creature who may be listening, there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute. Even life itself is an exercise in exceptions.

There are arguments for and against such a notion - but even with an infinite number of monk... I mean Lawyers on an infinite number of Type Writers - could we ever write legislation that could accurately describe every scenario, with every circumstance that may have mitigated or compounded a criminal act and subscribe an appropriate punishment for it?

To that end, I don't think it is possible and so the Law allows judgement to take into account factors in a case and in theory, assign the appropriate punishment.

I am not saying that the system is without fault or without flaws - but to those asking for the strictest interpretation of the law - contemplate the above.

[Banditbandit]

So your mate could have just got smarter with age? either at coving his offending or may have just wised up that the consequences were not worth the risk.
Serious Offending does tend down with age after all.

Yes, that's true .. Interestingly, the rate of re-offending among Māori mean drops significantly after 30 years of age .. the age of re-offending for other groups does not drop to the same extent ...

Yes but a significant proportion of the few (that are responsible for most of the serious offending) have no intention of ever changing at all (due to antisocial disorder proclivity ie psychopathy).
These are the ones that need to be identified quickly and locked away.

Yes. Also interesting - psychopathy is not confined to criminals - many very successful business people are psychopaths ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/victorli...nd-leadership/

Psychopathy does not mean the person will be a criminal

When are e going to learn?
Have a rule, stick by it.
Waver, even once, throw out the rule and allow the criminals to run the show.

Exactly. He broke the rules - he must face the consequences.

However, what after that ?? He's 14 - in my terms at school a fourth or fifth former ... year 10 or 11 ... He's lived 14 years with likely no concept of right or wrong from his parents and wider family ... Should not the community step in and say 'we can turn him around - it's worth trying" ...

[caspernz]

Psychopathy does not mean the person will be a criminal

Very true, yet unfortunately some of the crimes committed by white collar crims are both legal and accepted by the masses.

[husaberg]

Yes, that's true .. Interestingly, the rate of re-offending among Māori mean drops significantly after 30 years of age .. the age of re-offending for other groups does not drop to the same extent ...

Yes. Also interesting - psychopathy is not confined to criminals - many very successful business people are psychopaths ...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/victorli...nd-leadership/

Psychopathy does not mean the person will be a criminal



Exactly. He broke the rules - he must face the consequences.

However, what after that ?? He's 14 - in my terms at school a fourth or fifth former ... year 10 or 11 ... He's lived 14 years with likely no concept of right or wrong from his parents and wider family ... Should not the community step in and say 'we can turn him around - it's worth trying" ...

Yes many successful people are Sociopaths as they are ruthless and manipulative personalities that have no empathy.
but most psychopaths however are not as good at maintaining relationships and lack the sociopaths greater control over their outbursts. Ie sociopaths are better actors.
Thus psychopaths are not successful for long.
As a personality disorder however the percentage of psychopaths in prison are something like 20 times the normal percentage of those not incarcerated.
I think it is between 25 percent of violent criminals, yet psychopaths are only one percent of the population.
What I am also saying is I doubt this is his first chance at all.

Also where I have trouble the defence argued that because of his brain injury he is unable to tell right from wrong, if this is the case he needs to be incarcerated does he not?

[Banditbandit]

You have to consider the purpose of imprisonment- to protect society from a harmful person AND to act as a deterrent to prevent others committing such harm. For me there can be no exceptions because that nullifies the message.

Yes - nice theory - 'protection' works but as for deterence, the practice is somewhat different. The US o A practices the death penalty in many states - these states also have some of the highest murder rates in the world .. clearly the death penalty is no deterrent to murder.

The notorious Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona, who forced inmates to wear pink clothes and live in tents, was lauded for the good work he did, in discouraging prisoners from returning to jail, had a repeat offender rate of 98%. That's a complete FAIL ! (NZ's repeat ofending rate for first timers in jail is about 33%.)

Lots of people I know who have been to jail said they didn't think about that when they committed the crime ...

The reason why the intellectuals do not accept "deterrence" is because IT DOESN"T FUCKING WORK !!!

The message is most important. It's simple and shouldn't be complicated and confused by bringing in circumstances and excuses, such as alcohol or upbringing or colour or whatever.
Cut someone's throat open; they will die. You go to prison.

The message is not getting through .. and no matter how many people you drop in prison, the message is not getting through ... why keep repeating it? It's not working - find a better solution ... why do you keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect a different result. IT'S NOT FUCKING WORKING !!!

I see making exceptions for killers

Who said anything about making an exception ???

is similar to the principle of why the State should never help those that don't insure their home. The message must be clear and unwavering to work. You own something valuable, you pay for insurance. Those that choose otherwise must accept the consequences of their choice. The moment the State steps in out of best intentions and kindness, the other 98% of us that pay a bloody annoying premium year after year can all stop, we've been made fools of. The whole insurance industry collapses.

Hell yes - I was very fucked off last night watching that cunt in Chch with no insurance demanding the Government give him 100% compo for his house .. parasitic fucker ... sponging on the rest of us.

Yes this shithead might come out of prison in a worse state. But he would have learned the message; do wrong, go to prison. Letting him off lightly is not the answer and he learns the message; do wrong, and you will probably get away with it. That's not protecting the next dairy owner he comes across.

Who said anything about letting him off lightly??? Incarcerate him for sure (just in case, incarceration means lock him up ...) - If I was the judge I would give him life ... minimum parole period 12 years. Make sure he stays away from his fucked up family ... ensure he is old enough to make good decisions when he comes out ..

Put in place measures to teach him about right and wrong (just locking him up won't do that.) DO NOT drop him in Paremoremo when he turns 18 - keep him ion a safe place, give him an education - (he's in the perfect place to study) - help with his development (14 year olds are still developing - physically but more importantly mentally) Give him good role models .. give him the best chance or rejoining society as a useful and safe citizen ... monitor him when he gets out ...

If he then fucks up put him in Pare ...

[Banditbandit]

Yes many successful people are Sociopaths as they are ruthless and manipulative personalities but most psychopaths however are not as good at maintaining relationships and control over their outbursts and are thus are not successful for long.

Donald Trump perhaps ???

As a personality disorder however the percentage of psychopaths in prison are something like 10-20 times the normal percentage of those not incarcerated.
I think it is between 25 percent of violent criminals, yet psychopaths are one percent of the population.

Of course - that statistic does not surprise me .. I'm not saying that all psychopaths can be wonderful people - far from it.

I'm saying that psychopathy does not mean a criminal.

What I am saying is I doubt this is his first chance at all.

I do get what you are saying - and it may well not have been. I have also lived closely with people much like his family and I would also say that it is just as likely that this is his first chance ... If he had come to the notice of the authorities that may well have been mentioned in court .. but such groups avoid the authorities like the plague ...

Also where I have trouble the defence argued that because of his brain injury he is unable to tell right from wrong, if this is the case he needs to be incarcerated does he not?

That is often a consequence of a brain injury - and yes, there's a chance that means he should be kept in a secure facility (not necessarily a prison) However, our fucked up government and wimpy fucking liberals want mental health cases cared for in the community .. fucking doesn't always work either - so the secure facilities like Lake Alice have been closed and people dropped out into our communities ...

(Jeez wept - I'm starting to sound like the right wing ravers) ...

[husaberg]

Of course - that statistic does not surprise me .. I'm not saying that all psychopaths can be wonderful people - far from it.
I'm saying that psychopathy does not mean a criminal. ...

No but it means they has a 25 times higher rate of not changing their behaviour ever. Psychopaths and sociopaths never change, they only adapt. They will never have empathy.

That is often a consequence of a brain injury - and yes, there's a chance that means he should be kept in a secure facility (not necessarily a prison) However, our fucked up government and wimpy fucking liberals want mental health cases cared for in the community .. fucking doesn't always work either - so the secure facilities like Lake Alice have been closed and people dropped out into our communities ... ...

they need secure facilities no arguments from me.

(Jeez wept - I'm starting to sound like the right wing ravers) ...

Yes you did bring up Trump lol.

Steve Jobs
Back in the early days of Pixar when Jobs still owned it, he fired a huge chunk of the staff with no notice and outright refused any severance pay. When an employee begged for at least a two week notice, Jobs obliged, but then stated that this agreement was retroactive to two weeks ago. He did this because apparently it's okay to forego common decency if you're a sarcastic prick about it, which is a technique championed by Rush Limbaugh