NZTA hypocrites caught demonstrating that speed does not kill

[TheDemonLord]

The simple fact is speed enforcement is the only one size fits all policy that works on the majority of the population. Given that its average joe ma and pa who die in crashes it could well be argued speed enforcement has saved lives.
For the minority of the population that own high speed performance vehicles a speed ticket is a small expense in the overall cost of ownership and infrequent inconvenience given ticket frree km's travelled overall. Its a very small tax on your freedom and if your real clever you can avoid them almost completely.

Can you cite an example where due to the sole cause of Speed Enforcement resulted in a saved life?

We both know you can't.

My issue is that there are times when one can drive below the speed limit but too fast for the conditions - They do not get ticketed and yet they are more likely to be involved in a fatal accident, whereas there are roads (that lovely bit of Tarmac between Hastings and Dannevirke springs to mind) where it is nice a straight with excellent visibility, where travelling 10,20 or even 30 kph over the limit is not inherently unsafe - yet they are ticketed and branded as some form of social pariah.

From this blatant fact, we must accept that speeding enforcement is not to do with saving lives.

[R650R]

Simple fact is IT DOESN'T WORK [for safety], never has, never will. It is there now to bring in money, nothing more

Speed enforcement and other general traffic fines are not a profit making entity, if they were the govt would have long ago privatised it and sold it off. Revenue form traffic fines is small potatoes in overall govt spending and income source. And its not free income either, it comes at a considerable cost of training, salary and wages of cops and court staff and vehicle fleets.
If they really wanted extra money from motorists they could just up the petrol tax a few cents then let people speed and accelerate briskly, race away from traffic lights and the extra petrol used would generate more revenue than current fines do.
Most normal people don't get speeding tickets often, a small minority get them a lot for various reasons. Theres not enough repeat clients for it to be profitable.

[R650R]

Can you cite an example where due to the sole cause of Speed Enforcement resulted in a saved life?

We both know you can't.

My issue is that there are times when one can drive below the speed limit but too fast for the conditions - They do not get ticketed and yet they are more likely to be involved in a fatal accident, whereas there are roads (that lovely bit of Tarmac between Hastings and Dannevirke springs to mind) where it is nice a straight with excellent visibility, where travelling 10,20 or even 30 kph over the limit is not inherently unsafe - yet they are ticketed and branded as some form of social pariah.

From this blatant fact, we must accept that speeding enforcement is not to do with saving lives.

When speed cameras first came out I had my first bike, FZR250. I used to ride everywhere at about 70-80k in 50 zones as I thought I was safe and good at spotting hazards.
Shortly after cameras came out I slowed to 50 near a spot where camera had started hiding, a car pulled out from side road. Just missed, at 70 mi would have been toast, pretty clear example....

That bit of road you like has seen many people killed on it, classic case of risk compensation. It feels safer so people pay less attention or take risks.
Its not inherently unsafe until that bored tired sales rep drifts over the centreline, your both cruising at a safe 130k but no time to react... then there's the stray livestock lurking in the long grass and the extreme wind gusts...

[Scuba_Steve]

Speed enforcement and other general traffic fines are not a profit making entity, if they were the govt would have long ago privatised it and sold it off. Revenue form traffic fines is small potatoes in overall govt spending and income source. And its not free income either, it comes at a considerable cost of training, salary and wages of cops and court staff and vehicle fleets.
If they really wanted extra money from motorists they could just up the petrol tax a few cents then let people speed and accelerate briskly, race away from traffic lights and the extra petrol used would generate more revenue than current fines do.
Most normal people don't get speeding tickets often, a small minority get them a lot for various reasons. Theres not enough repeat clients for it to be profitable.

What, like they've done in America, Aust & probably other places too?
and it is free income given the insane way accounting works, cause it goes into a fund that did not have to outlay the investment it's pure profit, 60mil/yr profit & rising
They do increase petrol tax, all the fucking time.
That last line doesn't make any sense; well least not if you've seen any of the official releases on the speed scam

[HenryDorsetCase]

When speed cameras first came out I had my first bike, FZR250. I used to ride everywhere at about 70-80k in 50 zones as I thought I was safe and good at spotting hazards.
Shortly after cameras came out I slowed to 50 near a spot where camera had started hiding, a car pulled out from side road. Just missed, at 70 mi would have been toast, pretty clear example....

That bit of road you like has seen many people killed on it, classic case of risk compensation. It feels safer so people pay less attention or take risks.
Its not inherently unsafe until that bored tired sales rep drifts over the centreline, your both cruising at a safe 130k but no time to react... then there's the stray livestock lurking in the long grass and the extreme wind gusts...

I like kittens.

I'm just saying. correct horse battery staple

[R650R]

and it is free income given the insane way accounting works, cause it goes into a fund that did not have to outlay the investment it's pure profit, 60mil/yr profit & rising

$60 million is pocket money, about one day of welfare payments in NZ.

Some numbers based on 2003 data...

225 highway patrol officers, lets say there Salary plus uniform and other work costs, sick days holiday pay etc adds up to 70k per officer, that's $15,750,000 to start with.
We'll say a hundred traffic cars on the road doing 70,000km a year at the IRD running cost of 77c/km is $50,589 per car per year which is $5,058,900 for the fleet.
Then there is the fuel bill for the cars double shifted is easily $2,000,000 a year.
Another million dollars a year at least in fleet devaluation.

So right out the gate your looking at operating costs of just under 24 million dollars a year, to 'earn' $60 million in revenue, much of which is not collected or written off by the courts.
So lets say the net profit is $20 million at best, in a country of 4 million that's a mere five dollars per person....

[caspernz]

Unless you've driven under GPS you wont know how hard it is to drive 100% legal 100% of the time....

Haha, yeah we've got the new fangled E-Road licence readers all up and running in the whole truck fleet now, and the fella who is overlooking the reports has recently been "schooled" on how to extract the relevant info. It's meant a bit of adjustment for some drivers, with the target speeds for us now suggested as 2 km/h below the prevailing speed limit in any given area. Maybe I should go and work at NZTA...

All in all I'm not fussed about NZTA having been sprung, for as an individual my best contribution to road safety is to do my best at all times. And my speeding ticket frequency is less than 1 for every 1 million kms covered, so I'm quite relaxed about the whole "speed scam" hoopla that some keep referring to

[TheDemonLord]

When speed cameras first came out I had my first bike, FZR250. I used to ride everywhere at about 70-80k in 50 zones as I thought I was safe and good at spotting hazards.
Shortly after cameras came out I slowed to 50 near a spot where camera had started hiding, a car pulled out from side road. Just missed, at 70 mi would have been toast, pretty clear example....

That bit of road you like has seen many people killed on it, classic case of risk compensation. It feels safer so people pay less attention or take risks.
Its not inherently unsafe until that bored tired sales rep drifts over the centreline, your both cruising at a safe 130k but no time to react... then there's the stray livestock lurking in the long grass and the extreme wind gusts...

Or at 70 kph, you would have been passed the side road by the time the car pulled out.

It is interesting that you mentioned the tired sales rep - By your own scenario, Speed was not a factor, crossing the centreline caused the accident - so why then do you blame speed?

$60 million is pocket money, about one day of welfare payments in NZ.

Some numbers based on 2003 data...

225 highway patrol officers, lets say there Salary plus uniform and other work costs, sick days holiday pay etc adds up to 70k per officer, that's $15,750,000 to start with.
We'll say a hundred traffic cars on the road doing 70,000km a year at the IRD running cost of 77c/km is $50,589 per car per year which is $5,058,900 for the fleet.
Then there is the fuel bill for the cars double shifted is easily $2,000,000 a year.
Another million dollars a year at least in fleet devaluation.

So right out the gate your looking at operating costs of just under 24 million dollars a year, to 'earn' $60 million in revenue, much of which is not collected or written off by the courts.
So lets say the net profit is $20 million at best, in a country of 4 million that's a mere five dollars per person....

That is the biggest strawman ever presented:

Those 225 Patrol officers are there regardless of whether you are ticketing people for speed or not - they represent a fixed cost. One currently payed for by the Tax power, now if we start ticketing people, we suddenly are covering our fixed costs and not only that, we have a surplus (by your own admissions guesstimated at $20 million) by my quick maths - that allows you to almost double your budget for the Patrol officers without having to ask the Govt for additional funding.

By that, and that alone it is revenue gathering - getting a Govt department to 'pay its way'

[willytheekid]

$60 million is pocket money, about one day of welfare payments in NZ.

Some numbers based on 2003 data...

225 highway patrol officers, lets say there Salary plus uniform and other work costs, sick days holiday pay etc adds up to 70k per officer, that's $15,750,000 to start with.
We'll say a hundred traffic cars on the road doing 70,000km a year at the IRD running cost of 77c/km is $50,589 per car per year which is $5,058,900 for the fleet.
Then there is the fuel bill for the cars double shifted is easily $2,000,000 a year.
Another million dollars a year at least in fleet devaluation.

So right out the gate your looking at operating costs of just under 24 million dollars a year, to 'earn' $60 million in revenue, much of which is not collected or written off by the courts.
So lets say the net profit is $20 million at best, in a country of 4 million that's a mere five dollars per person....

Sorry, but NOPE!

Revenue grab!...NOTHING more!!

You wanna make the roads safer?...TEACH people to drive safely!...its called defensive driving, and all most all other country's won't give you a license until you pass said defensive driving course...but NZ??...fuck no!!, "can ya get around the block?...park this piece of crap?...Ohh only your 17th go at sitting this BASIC test??...well, congrats!, you FINALLY passed...just learn the rest as you go!..that'll be $$$

But hay, teaching people said safe driving skills COSTS money! (even if it saves lives, lowers hospital costs, acc, insurance, and many MAAAANY other related costs)...But its just soooo much easier and profitable to rape a poorly trained populace over bullshit! 5k fluctuations in speed!...and THAT'S what you refer to as "road safety"???

...sorry mate, its just a revenue grab under the false guise of "road safety"...and we ALL know it.

heres some "facts"...Ive Been speeding my whole life!!...an I'm still here...could be all that advanced rider training I had...or is it just those speed cameras keeping me alive? ...thanks NZTA/Police

[caspernz]

Those 225 Patrol officers are there regardless of whether you are ticketing people for speed or not - they represent a fixed cost. One currently payed for by the Tax power, now if we start ticketing people, we suddenly are covering our fixed costs and not only that, we have a surplus (by your own admissions guesstimated at $20 million) by my quick maths - that allows you to almost double your budget for the Patrol officers without having to ask the Govt for additional funding.

By that, and that alone it is revenue gathering - getting a Govt department to 'pay its way'

The way you look at those numbers makes sense, but it overlooks the basic problem. We've now reached the point where the "indoctrination" of the majority of HP officers is complete. How does one go about changing this outlook without improving actual driving standards? Quickly becomes a circular reference I realise...

[Mike.Gayner]

We'll say a hundred traffic cars on the road doing 70,000km a year at the IRD running cost of 77c/km is $50,589 per car per year which is $5,058,900 for the fleet.
Then there is the fuel bill for the cars double shifted is easily $2,000,000 a year.
Another million dollars a year at least in fleet devaluation.

While I broadly agree with you, that's not quite right on a technical level - the IRD rate is a complete reimbursement and already accounts for depreciation and fuel cost. Having said that I think you've grossly underestimated the costs of our "road safety force".

However on a broad level, the evidence is clear that:
a) on a population level, reducing speed reduces injury and death, all else being equal
b) $60m is barely a rounding error on the government accounts.

Do I therefore agree with the NZTA/Police strategy? Absolutely not, but it's a much more complicated problem than people here care to believe.

But of course the average KB'er would have you believe they're every bit as capable as Rossi on the roads.

[Mike.Gayner]

heres some "facts"...Ive Been speeding my whole life!!...an I'm still here...could be all that advanced rider training I had.

Well, who could possibly argue with this unquestionably conscientious body of evidence?

[TheDemonLord]

The way you look at those numbers makes sense, but it overlooks the basic problem. We've now reached the point where the "indoctrination" of the majority of HP officers is complete. How does one go about changing this outlook without improving actual driving standards? Quickly becomes a circular reference I realise...

True, true - I would like to think though that we could (with our collective smarts) write better legislation that targets more accurately dangerous driving habits and then fines them accordingly. I don't care for mr and mrs average doing 110 kph on a road where the conditions are safe to do so, I do care about Mr or Mrs reckless doing 80 (in a 100 zone) where the conditions are not safe to do so. I care about Mr or Mrs poor lane discipline wandering all over their lanes, I care about Mr or Mrs shitty cornering lines who can't seem to go round a corner on the open road without cutting it.

I could go on.

There is also a big element in this country that many of our major inter-city arterial routes are little more than Back roads hastily converted into 'State Highways' - and yet I have never seen the Govt issued a ticket for its complicity in the appalling state of some of the roads....

[TheDemonLord]

However on a broad level, the evidence is clear that:
a) on a population level, reducing speed reduces injury and death, all else being equal

The reducto ad absurdium of that arguement is that if we reduce the Speed limit to 0 - all injuries and deaths will be avoided.

And yet, somehow, I don't think you would be in favour of that notion.

[R650R]

Or at 70 kph, you would have been passed the side road by the time the car pulled out.

It is interesting that you mentioned the tired sales rep - By your own scenario, Speed was not a factor, crossing the centreline caused the accident - so why then do you blame speed?

Damn you for making me multi quote.... well if your only doing 100k the closing speed is much slower, more time to react. Pretty simple really and has been said a lot by cops and others.
The faster you go the less reaction time for others mistakes. Eg at roadworks if you hit a roadworker at 30k still likely to kill him. The reason for the 30k limit is so you have chance to avoid him if he steps or falls in front of you.

That is the biggest strawman ever presented:

Those 225 Patrol officers are there regardless of whether you are ticketing people for speed or not - they represent a fixed cost.

But we're generally agreed there writing out tickets 99% of time.....

No one likes speed tickets but really its a lost argument that a govt would spend so much money to get 'revenue' when they could just tax us all another $5 a year....