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Thread: Iam nz

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maha View Post
    Rotorua Marathon.
    Now that I dont believe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by tamarillo View Post
    Well, I figure if any rider has any motivation to improve there road riding, they could follow the link. There are some very good videos on YouTube and uk IAM site too.

    As for getting around the corner, well I'll agree that the place to learn about your hikes capabilities and safe cornering ability is the track, and have enjoyed days there in training myself.
    But the road is very different place, and once you know you can use the ability of your bike, next you need to learn where to be on road, how to identify and react to hazards etc etc.

    Many a good experienced rider, one who is thought of as one to learn from, has found huge improvement from road craft training.

    An ex UK police pursuit rider on his ST1300 makes a mockery of some of these so called experienced riders on smaller agile bikes over the takaka hill.

    A friend commented that I take my riding seriously (I was in midst of the IAM work at time) and asked if its still fun. I thought about that and replied : hell yes I have huge fun, but riding a motorcycle on a public road is a bloody stupid thing to do when you think about how vulnerable we are, and how often we crash when it's all our own fault. So if I'm going to do something that stupid I better take it seriously.
    I now enjoy my riding more than ever, and am still learning.

    Each to their own, but truly believing you've got nothing to learn is the single biggest factor in likely hood of crashing, IMO.
    Well to be fair those that want to be better riders will find a way to do so. I have sat on the edge of IAM for sometime and would like to do some proper work on it one day when time allows. I did by chance end up getting a basic evaluation ride with an observer and have taken what he has said on board.

    As the saying goes, "Experience is a cruel teacher, you get the test before the lesson" . Track days like the ART days give you an environment to try different lines without trees, power poles and opposing traffic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Dont disagree of course. In fact all of which is part of Trackcraft if you want to call it that.
    Actually the UK Police/IAM 'system' covers bike handling skills. I can assure you what another poster has said about an ex UK Police rider making a mockery over the 'taka's will be 100% correct. The UK drivers are a specific division {traffic} They 'in old UK films' were the ones driving the 'jam sandwich' {white car, red stripe} and had the 'twin tit's' on the roof, not the blue 'patrol car with a single 'tit'.
    I months ago, posted a link showing a UK Police driver and a race driver going round a race track in a 'touring car', the rozzer was only 3 seconds slower, and they use a completely different driving technique.
    Police do not heel/toe, they do not 'cross arms', but feed the wheel, maintaining two hand contact at all times {10 to and 10 past position}.
    Race bike riding is about the best line etc, the police system operates from a safety first aspect. Going round a bend, for example, {basics} you stay out wide UNTIL the apex starts to open up, maximum vision round the bend, not 'best line'.
    You can argue this until the cows come home, that trackcraft teaches better bike control, I doubt it, it teaches a different set of skills. If you read the quote below it sums up the difference, observe, anticipate and plan.

    " The United Kingdom is leading the World in Law Enforcement Driver Training. Following the introduction of British Police Driving Schools in 1935, the next twenty years brought a dramatic decrease in collisions by Metropolitan Police drivers. The U.K. Government reported that police collisions dropped to a mere one-sixth of their previous amount. The United Kingdom utilizes a system of car control referred to as Roadcraft. The system was created specifically for the U.K. Police and was put together at the Metropolitan Police Driving School. The early success of the system led to the expansion on the civilian market in the 1950's. Roadcraft: The Police Driver's Handbook has been available to the public since that time and numerous advanced driving schools have been available to the general public for decades. According to Eddie Wren, the executive director of Drive & Stay Alive, "The key factor is that this is no Johnny-come-lately scheme, dreamt up by a few individuals on the basis that it seems like a good method. It has been refined and improved for more than seventy years by collective thousands of the world's top public road driving experts. The fundamental aim of advanced driving is to utilize observations, anticipation and planning, to allow a driver to have adequate time to deal with any situation that might arise. This is applicable not only to genuinely good drivers, travelling within the relevant legal speed limits, but also to emergency personnel driving at very high speeds."
    If the road to hell is paved with good intentions; and a man is judged by his deeds and his actions, why say it's the thought that counts? -GrayWolf

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf View Post
    You can argue this until the cows come home, that trackcraft teaches better bike control, I doubt it, it teaches a different set of skills. If you read the quote below it sums up the difference, observe, anticipate and plan.
    \
    You should try a proper taught track day. What they teach for the basics and what the System use are very close. When I was observed I was told my lines were correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    You should try a proper taught track day. What they teach for the basics and what the System use are very close. When I was observed I was told my lines were correct.

    So in that case one could extrapolate that, as the 'system' has been formulated, improved since 1935, racing schools have 'borrowed' from it.... just re-inforces what I am saying really, roadcraft, not 'trackcraft'.
    If the road to hell is paved with good intentions; and a man is judged by his deeds and his actions, why say it's the thought that counts? -GrayWolf

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    You should try a proper taught track day. What they teach for the basics and what the System use are very close. When I was observed I was told my lines were correct.
    When you take all the courses, off road, track, road, you also need to look at who is writing them. CBTA for example has been heavily based on roadcraft. Roadcraft in one form or another (or elements of it) underpins almost any course (again, who is writing the course - often they have the same people behind them all...)

    Roadcraft has pretty much been around since the 1930s. IAM UK was formed in the '50s by serving police officers after it worked for their drivers, and NZ was formed a year later (by one of the UK founders emigrating).

    All methods have their place for training, and all have pros and cons and you have to look at what you're trying to learn. However, to learn roadcraft (as a whole), you need to be on the road. Track lessons might help with machine control in isolation in lieu of corners, but how do they demonstrate action around traffic, intersections, and other hazard awareness? Nope... it isn't possible, but all tuition has a purpose and a place.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Omorogbe from UK MSN on the KTM990SM
    It's barking mad and if it doesn't turn you into a complete loon within half an hour of cocking a leg over the lofty 875mm seat height, I'll eat my Arai.

  7. #22
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    The Roadcraft approach works on all forms of motorised vehicle. In my industry one of the long serving driver trainers made the comment that the guys who ride bikes, most of 'em make good truck drivers. Based on the anticipation and keeping a bit of space around them for safety.

    I've done a variety of courses over the years, the biggest variable ends up being the riders' ego, as in can I deal with someone else being a "better rider" than me? Often this better rider thinks he/she is so on the basis of being more risk tolerant, or flouting the law in order to get ahead...

    From where I sit, the IAM approach offers a road rider the best set of skills. Nothing wrong with spending some time on a track to perfect/practice machine control, but doing just track work won't produce a safe rider.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by caspernz View Post
    Nothing wrong with spending some time on a track to perfect/practice machine control, but doing just track work won't produce a safe rider.
    Agree. Track will help you have the skills to get around a turn at open road speeds with control and not bouncing off road side furniture. Quality road training helps with the rest, and Iam provides this. Sadly I dont believe some commercial trainers do.

    My understanding is one of the better trainers also trains truck drivers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  9. #24
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    What are the ACC courses like?

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Sadly I dont believe some commercial trainers do.
    The bar for instructors has been lifted. When you sit I endorsement it's for every class (even if you just want to instruct motorcycles), hence you have to get 100% on motorcycle, car and heavy vehicle questions.

    Now, you also have to demonstrate further training ie, for motorcycles, we've had a few instructors coming through seeking an IAM Advanced Test pass to demonstrate this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jane Omorogbe from UK MSN on the KTM990SM
    It's barking mad and if it doesn't turn you into a complete loon within half an hour of cocking a leg over the lofty 875mm seat height, I'll eat my Arai.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Now that I dont believe.
    It was known as the Fletcher Marathon when I did it, a tad over 4 hours due to a knee injury three weeks prior. Damn pot holes/road works.. you don't get those on a track.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by nodrog View Post
    Iam Weasel
    I R Baboon

    ?

  13. #28
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    ............







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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gremlin View Post
    The bar for instructors has been lifted. When you sit I endorsement it's for every class (even if you just want to instruct motorcycles), hence you have to get 100% on motorcycle, car and heavy vehicle questions.

    Now, you also have to demonstrate further training ie, for motorcycles, we've had a few instructors coming through seeking an IAM Advanced Test pass to demonstrate this.
    Now thats good to hear. I could never understand how little some seemed to know. It surprises me that you could just go get your I endorsement then get into it. I would have thought a Advanced test pass would have been a basic requirement.

    I wont be bothering with I as all I wanted it for was helping guide some new riders. I dont have the spare 5k or so for doing a bit of voluntary work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by haydes55 View Post
    I R Baboon

    ?

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