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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by FJRider View Post
    People crash by hitting cars ... does their observational skills need work too .. ???
    Depends. If seeing the car earlier would've helped then yes. Also, you can often tell what a car is likely to do if you're more observant.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    You cant tell if they dont indicate though but some on this forum do have anticipation or mind reading skills that help them.
    You are the perfect case in point. Your obervational skills are among the worst based on what you've posted.

    There have been a number of occasions when I've known well in advance what a car was going to do because I simply kept my eyes open for every detail.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by 5ive View Post
    I'll probably have a look at IAM for some further training in the future, more skills/advice/training won't hurt. I'm all for upskilling.

    I don't think that it's all black and white when it comes to road vs track though. Having done a few courses and training already elsewhere while I was waitng to sit my motorcycle licences up to full, I'm not convinced that the 'Road Craft' instructors/testers were all that 'clued up' or experienced as much as they should be.

    The trainer for my ACC Ride Forever Bronze course was average at best, and turned up on a cruiser to train 4 sports bike riders in the rain (after knowing beforehand the bikes we had, and the weather forecast), and ended up cutting short the open road component because he couldn't keep up in the rain (and was taking the wrong lines).

    My CBTA 1 training and test almost ended prematurely, because the trainer/tester almost washed out the front wheel of their bike following me during the testing phase, due to them taking the wrong line around a corner over tar bleed in the rain in a 50km speed zone (I was riding to the speed limit for the test obviously).

    My ACC Ride Forever Silver course however, was totally different, the instructor has and does race at the track, and I wouldn't rule out any UK poice rider training as well considering that is where they were from. It was a MASSIVE difference in rider skill displayed, and the riding lessons provided. It was on and off rain during the day, but that didn't make it harder, it just meant we were able to learn more from someone who had experience and skill. We were shown the perfect blend of safe and fast, just right for the open public roads.

    I felt safer, and more comfortable with the track experienced trainer/instructor than the 'Road Craft' ones, in my experience, and I went back to him to sit my CBTA2 of course, got to be carefull of who you ride with...

    I cant comment on your personal experience, as it's obviously way different to mine...
    there are some IAM involved KB'rs who might chip in with luck, and are you really surprised a cruiser could not 'keep up' with sprotbikes on bends?? The guy might only own cruisers, we dont all subscribe to the head down, arse up style of riding. {my belly would get in the way for a start}
    The mentioned 'rastuscat' in a discussion a while ago around a similar topic did say there are 'notable' differences between NZ and UK Police training, here they are trained more in 'close quarter traffic situations', as mentioned the UK focus more with the 'high speed' training.
    And yes when I did my training the instructor was a Popo rider, as are many on various courses in the UK. The Popo here do not encourage the few riders they have to 'get involved'......
    Even if you decide against the training courses get a copy of the Police 'roadcraft' motorcycle book.... One thing I mention on her repeatedly is a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'....... it's called it for a reason!!! {rear observation before turning right or overtaking}.... that book will explain and 'teach it' in detail..... it's been 70 yrs in the designing.
    If the road to hell is paved with good intentions; and a man is judged by his deeds and his actions, why say it's the thought that counts? -GrayWolf

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf View Post
    I cant comment on your personal experience, as it's obviously way different to mine...
    there are some IAM involved KB'rs who might chip in with luck, and are you really surprised a cruiser could not 'keep up' with sprotbikes on bends?? The guy might only own cruisers, we dont all subscribe to the head down, arse up style of riding. {my belly would get in the way for a start}
    The mentioned 'rastuscat' in a discussion a while ago around a similar topic did say there are 'notable' differences between NZ and UK Police training, here they are trained more in 'close quarter traffic situations', as mentioned the UK focus more with the 'high speed' training.
    And yes when I did my training the instructor was a Popo rider, as are many on various courses in the UK. The Popo here do not encourage the few riders they have to 'get involved'......
    Even if you decide against the training courses get a copy of the Police 'roadcraft' motorcycle book.... One thing I mention on her repeatedly is a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'....... it's called it for a reason!!! {rear observation before turning right or overtaking}.... that book will explain and 'teach it' in detail..... it's been 70 yrs in the designing.
    The Life saver is the one big thing I got called up about on my little observed ride. Something I got lazy on.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    As i said most of the population are not gifted with your skills because if they were there would be very few crashes would their not???
    Fuck it'd be good if such a thing were trainable, instead of gifted only though
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    You cant tell if they dont indicate though but some on this forum do have anticipation or mind reading skills that help them.
    Some just assume they will do the worst thing possible ... and expect no less.

    Too often they will ... and you will be ready.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    If it was trainable it would be a requirement for getting a license.
    So why are police trained to a higher standard than our license requirements?
    "A shark on whiskey is mighty risky, but a shark on beer is a beer engineer" - Tad Ghostal

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf View Post
    a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'.......
    Because here it's known as a head check.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by swbarnett View Post
    Because here it's known as a head check.
    And some people on here will still tell you it's not necessary.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    As i said most of the population are not gifted with your skills
    The thing is I'm not gifted with them either. The first thing I did was to get some formal training before I got my license. Since then it's taken a lot of road time, open mindedness and self criticism to develop my powers of observation.

    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    because if they were there would be very few crashes would their not???
    There would certainly be fewer crashes if some riders would pull their head out of the sand and realise that observational skills can be developed. No matter your natural aptitude.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    As i said most of the population are not gifted with your skills because if they were there would be very few crashes would their not???
    Here you go again. You have to concentrate all the time when you ride, not just when you feel like it. That way you would see all of the clues to tell you something is about to happen that you will not see if you ride with your eyes open and your brain turned off. Like cars that u-turn. It can't be done if there is no driver, or wheels pointing straight ahead. But you have to look to see that.

    People who cannot demonstrate this and continue to crash should have their licence taken off them.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf View Post
    I cant comment on your personal experience, as it's obviously way different to mine...

    And yes when I did my training the instructor was a Popo rider, as are many on various courses in the UK. The Popo here do not encourage the few riders they have to 'get involved'......
    Not sure if that was ever the case but in the last 5 years that I've been involved, both serving and retired police have been heavily involved with IAM. This years' annual conference was held at National Police College at Porirua. Their top instructors worked with attending members on all manner of skills, including on-road and training ground skills. Outstanding!

    Have to agree with you regarding lifesavers/head checks. When we carry out initial assessments for prospective members, lack of head checks at critical points are the most common area for improvement. This is part of an overall lack of situational awareness.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    Do you now ride a push bike which gives you more time to be ready due to your slower speed or to you drive a Hummer so you can be ready?
    Time is only an issue if you do not LOOK for possible issues.

    A slow speed will not always assure you of an accident free ride.

    Neither push bikes or Hummers are no guarantee of survival or being free of injury.
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maha View Post
    Running wide during cornering has little to do with observation
    Not taking notice of the brake lights of the car ahead ... or cars parked on the left of the road with their (right) indicator on ... cars approaching with their right indicator on ... cars waiting to pull out into your intended path ... has a great deal to do with observation ...
    When life throws you a curve ... Lean into it ...

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf View Post
    The mentioned 'rastuscat' in a discussion a while ago around a similar topic did say there are 'notable' differences between NZ and UK Police training, here they are trained more in 'close quarter traffic situations', as mentioned the UK focus more with the 'high speed' training.
    NZ Police don't do high speed training (I think it's something about not being able to legally practise at high speed?) while the UK are certified to levels of chase speed. The biggest factor for the officers, is that the higher the speed they are graded for, the greater the burden of responsibility on them, as they should be better, ie, even if a car pulls out in front of them, they should have anticipated. The police here do practise for situations where they are reversed into... (well, positioning, not the actual crunch )

    Quote Originally Posted by GrayWolf
    Even if you decide against the training courses get a copy of the Police 'roadcraft' motorcycle book.... One thing I mention on her repeatedly is a manoeuvre called the 'life saver', over 90% of the time it meets with a 'whats that'....... it's called it for a reason!!! {rear observation before turning right or overtaking}.... that book will explain and 'teach it' in detail..... it's been 70 yrs in the designing.
    Just bear in mind that it's a hell of a read for the uninitiated. Don't try to digest in one hit, read a chapter, practise a little, read a bit, etc.

    Those joining IAM NZ are given an A5 Riding Standards booklet, which is a condensed version of the book and modified for NZ laws.
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