Iam nz

[nzspokes]

I'm unsure how much real training the general police receive for cars.

My understanding is they get a day on a track and thats about it. Could be wrong but thats what I have been told. Obviously the M/C guys do heaps of training.

Now for the UK cops, and again I could be well wrong, but isnt it the certed high speed pursuit drivers that do the full roadcraft course?

[nzspokes]

cassina is winning this argument

No she isnt. She is just looking for excuses for crashing so much.

[FJRider]

According to what I have read the ACC have costed our "true responsibility" on the road at just over $2000 for a big bike

You can read ... ??????????????????????????????????????


And ... is that $2000 per day .. per year ... or per ride ... ???

Link please ...

[bogan]

You are wrong according to Gremlin and I quote:

You need some experience under your belt to be able to understand some of the concepts, have some experience on the road. So you think the Govt would not incorporate IAMS training into the license test as it would be unpopular? I assume you mean as it would put the cost up? But on the other hand would such training if its as good as those on here say it is bring the road crash ACC bill down to virtually zero. That is of course you believe any screwup by another party is always avoidable from their teaching.

None of which is a specific experience is it not? That's just general experience; specifically, the general experience of basic roadcraft specificity.

Well it would be, would it not?

No, that would be not, because if all were IAMS roadcrafted (specifically so, for you information), the only crash could only be caused by some IAMS, could it not? The specific sparsity of motorists, would also help to reduce accidents; would it not?

[Gremlin]

A brisk, robust discussion about the differences between IAM UK and here would be interesting.

It would be more interesting than going in circles and it's an inevitable question when migrants from the UK come here and realise that IAM NZ does exist (albeit a tad smaller... like, the country as a whole is currently smaller than some regional groups in UK).

First, IAM structure/membership is mostly the same. Associate, Member, Trainee Observer, Observer, Senior Observer and Examiner are all common. With UK being much much bigger, there are certain things that the national committee decides that all regional groups follow, but then also some policy is left up to the regional groups. While we have regional groups (currently, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, Top of the South forming with assistance from Wellington and Christchurch, and Waikato/CNI about to form with help from Auckland) there is effectively one policy for all, with standards cross checked (singing from the same song sheet is the aim but hard with a pile of humans in the midst)

I think in the UK there are some courses where you can gain an IAM pass quite quickly (within weeks), which makes me wonder whether we're at a higher standard (coupled with experiences amongst Observers of oddities, like comfort braking into corners and that most UK riders have to go through the regular process to reach test standard). IAM NZ does have an accelerated process as an option for ex UK riders for example, but often find that either (or both) not being familiar with NZ road law or not practising recently causes them to fail the check, which means it's back to regular process. Otherwise, progress is up to each rider (and assigned Observer). Being 1 to 1, there is no set classes or anything, just pickup where required and go from there. We've had riders with minimal experience, (low km, 3-4 years riding) who've had professional instruction (and it shows) through to serving police officers (plus some being ex UK and IAM and instructors within Police). Naturally time to complete will vary and most of us say the advanced test is more like a benchmark and you continue from there. Some then continue through to the Observing which obviously helps future capacity.

Generally, most would probably progress in 6 months to 18 months, some take longer, some don't complete. Not ideal, but some do come along just for an ego stroke... it doesn't work out. Amongst the Observers we try really hard to have no egos (and expect Associates to be the same), no stupid questions... after all, we're giving up our time to help... laughing at someone doesn't achieve that. Other entities like RoSPA have bronze/silver/gold passes, IAM just has advanced test pass. Theory being, why separate achievement? You either make the grade like everyone else or you don't.

Second, road law. Obviously nothing in roadcraft can contradict the respective countries road laws, so there are variances. Ones I'm familiar with (from riding with ex UK riders) would be, NZ, we indicate basically all the time, legally required. UK, you only indicate when someone would benefit and indicating all the time would potentially see you fail. Lane selection (mostly motorway), undertaking in a separate lane in UK is illegal, they see the lanes in combination. Here, it is legal to undertake in a separate lane (still illegal if within the same lane unless car turning right, stopped etc etc). Lane discipline is far stronger in the UK, but space between interchanges is usually much greater than NZ, for example Khyber Pass and Gillies are really close together and even Ellerslie/Greenlane would be considered close. This means that travelling in the left lane often doesn't work well as you have cars constantly exiting and entering the motorway.

Crossing the centre line (like being on the RHS of the road - oncoming lane setting up for a left hander) is allowed in UK, illegal in NZ. Slight right kink on open corner, you use oncoming in UK, again, illegal in NZ. Argument from UK is that in wet etc, bike is safest upright, or minimising lean. No point arguing here, and personally, I don't see much priority in changing that as there is enough of an issue with drivers unable to stay on the correct side of the road when really required from a safety point of view, without confusing it.

Correct procedure when indicating at roundabouts is often a gotcha and I'm not certain how UK treats Stop signs but we normally have to remind ex UK riders to tidy it up a little, make sure they stop suitably etc.

I've had riders openly ask for a cheat sheet of the differences (and it's been raised amongst Observers) but from my point of view, part of being an advanced rider is knowing the road laws, not just grabbing a cheat sheet and learning what might make you fail the test.

[Gremlin]

My understanding is they get a day on a track and thats about it. Could be wrong but thats what I have been told. Obviously the M/C guys do heaps of training.

Now for the UK cops, and again I could be well wrong, but isnt it the certed high speed pursuit drivers that do the full roadcraft course?

UK cops are really established in that regard. There are classes of speed for pursuit driving. ie, seeing one of the UK shows, the police car had to stop and the two officers swap over because the speeds involved meant only one was certified high enough to continue. As I noted before, the higher their certification, the greater the burden of responsibility on those drivers.

Yes, drivers undergoing certification in the UK have intense courses, all akin to motorcycle, full roadcraft, and actually assess under lights on open roads and their laws allow that. I don't think NZ has anything special in that regard and certainly no pursuit training? Law doesn't allow them to train under lights on open road etc from my understanding.

I doubt there is room in their budget, but I'd personally like to see police drivers upskilled in general, with road based training (obviously not under lights or aspect like that). There has been the odd instances where, as a motorcyclist it was clear as day there was a danger, that did result in a crash. Could further training have made a difference? Can't answer that... Really, any company with a fleet (and drivers) should have an aspect... The bigger truck companies usually have in-house trainers I think and take it seriously, after all, the drivers are in control of seriously expensive rigs... plus good driving yields tangible results in efficiency.

You are wrong according to Gremlin and I quote:

You need some experience under your belt to be able to understand some of the concepts, have some experience on the road.

Nope, you're wrong. There is no specific requirements for experience, just general. Otherwise, as I said, you'd have to list urban v rural v motorway, what about time of day? Weather? Certain traffic volume (over or under). Hey look, you could write a book on requirements if you did that.

[caspernz]

cassina is winning this argument

If by winning you mean she ends up having the argument by herself, then yes

[bogan]

Per year dummy

Per year per dummy?

So what do the rest of us cost then? Is it not. For you information.

[caspernz]

Some of us have broken into song...

https://youtu.be/w4IinXN1Px0

[bogan]

I thought roadcraft was what IAMs taught which does leave the question about what is taught when sitting your license. I guess some of you would say very little compared to what IAMs teach, but if it was so far removed wouldnt the death toll be so much more than what it is?

It is, clearly, what is taught, being the craft of roading; by the AMs of I.

For your informatory imbuement, it is nothing at all, sitting one's license is a test, is it not?

No, for your information some of us would say less than that, not what it is.

No. People do this thing where they don't like dying.

[Gremlin]

I thought roadcraft was what IAMs taught which does leave the question about what is taught when sitting your license. I guess some of you would say very little compared to what IAMs teach, but if it was so far removed wouldnt the death toll be so much more than what it is?

Nothing is taught when sitting your licence. It's a test, not a teaching lesson.

Since you visited the IAM website, perhaps you noticed the byline on the main page?

IAM NZ is a charitable organisation dedicated to promoting better driving and riding and enhancing road safety, by taking the standard of driving and riding of existing drivers and riders to a level significantly higher than that required to pass the normal driving test.

[nzspokes]

People do this thing where they don't like dying.

Thats probably the most true thing on the thread.

And those that volunteer to run IAM dont like others dying.

[nzspokes]

No wonder then you need IAMS if you feel nothing was learnt when you sat your licence. Its all very well for them to say their course is more advanced than sitting your licence but without any detail listed I would percieve it as being no different to going for my license again as in both cases you are followed and judged are you not?

Do you not understand what happens in a rider licence test?

Do you have a class 6 licence?

[FJRider]

Nothing is taught when sitting your licence. It's a test, not a teaching lesson.

Nothing may be "taught" whilst sitting your (any) license ... but what is more important is what is learned during this process.

Even more important ... is what is retained in actual practice on the road ...

[nzspokes]

Even more important ... is what is retained in actual practice on the road ...

To have crashed 5+ times, doesnt sound like much stuck.