Rule change submissions close 1 March 2016 - be in to win.

[BelindaS]

Reading your post below, it looks like you have got your clarification.



Legal as what in the USA? doubt that it is as a commuter bike, and for certain sure that is not a bike that can be registered here as a road legal bike and that is what counts. If I am wrong show me at least one, but preferably several off the floor shop standard bike(s) registered here in NZ for use on the road or at least a photo of several bikes on the show room floor that are clearly able to be legally used on the road.



Being more upfront about your commercial interests in getting pitbikes accepted into Buckets may have been more honest.



Being sly and manipulative on the net will get you being called a troll.

The Derbi is road legal in the Europe not sold in NZ
The LXM 155 is road legal commuter bike in 50 States of the USA. It is legal in New Zealand.

http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

I have no affiliation with or have any commercial interest to do with pit bikes.

I have being open and honest and yet still called a troll. Brilliant!

Cheers B

[speedpro]

Chassis, among other things, are open. Hence the RS125 chassis being used. They were never intended to be registered so are a good example of why that aspect of the argument is irrelevant.

[Henk]

The Derbi is road legal in the Europe not sold in NZ
The LXM 155 is road legal commuter bike in 50 States of the USA. It is legal in New Zealand.

http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

I have no affiliation with or have any commercial interest to do with pit bikes.

I have being open and honest and yet still called a troll. Brilliant!

Cheers B

The pitster pro might well be legal. The bike in question is this one.

http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

[speedpro]

The problem as I understand it is possibly two fold
1 - There is a suggestion that most of the pit bikes are "competition" bikes. Certainly some of the promotional literature suggests so. Competition engines are prohibited.
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

As I said earlier the chassis is OK as there is no mention in the rules about what is a legal chassis.


MNZ RULES:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

[speedpro]

The pitster pro might well be legal. The bike in question is this one.

http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

The first line of the first paragraph . . . . .

[TALLIS]

Wellington guys should have abit of understanding here, how many years has it taken to be accepted at kaitoke? Hell, we still aren't allowed any voting rights as members. We all help out at working bees and have members on the comity. I just don't understand the problem, just cos we're Maori and there Maori ores
(Still waiting for somebody to say there not allowed cos there not real bikes)

[mr bucketracer]

The problem as I understand it is possibly two fold
1 - There is a suggestion that most of the pit bikes are "competition" bikes. Certainly some of the promotional literature suggests so. Competition engines are prohibited.
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

As I said earlier the chassis is OK as there is no mention in the rules about what is a legal chassis.


MNZ RULES:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

kind off makes your 250 4- 125 twin a non bucket ? seen it started as a 250? bugger i need to stop new project lol , buckets is now sounding boring

[bucketracer]

The Derbi is road legal in the Europe not sold in NZ The LXM 155 is road legal commuter bike in 50 States of the USA. It is legal in New Zealand. http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

LXM155, pity that is not the bike in question.

The bike in question is this one. http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

Hi Yow Ling Yes it can be registered in New Zealand

Belinda is this the bike? you can register this in NZ???? for what? duck shooting? certainly not for road use as it is.

Imported Derbies were registered and used on the road here in NZ. There may even be a photo of Chambers one on the ESE thread.

[mr bucketracer]

Belinda is this the bike? How do you register it for road use?

piss easy , we live in new zealand

[Bert]

can of worms is started to be opened...

So no reduced bore KTM200 Dukes or RG150s or TZR125 or VTR250 cylinder barrels & heads.
What about converted line4s. Or 600cc cut heads. So no cool engineering allowed or out of the box solution.
Grey is the colour you get mixing Black and white.... And there is darker shades of grey than pitbikes...

If it is a safety, track protection, stance or dislike let's make sure that decisions are justfied the right way.

Conflicted views:

Personally - I'd rather them not out there (bikes not the riders), due to intent of the class and a few minor safety concerns... But if the numbers were up and track time available then it's a not brainer (great opportunity for sourcing new riders). Problem is it hasn't grown very quickly as people had suggested...
But if clubs try and accomodate them then it's all cool (but not a right).
And as per standard MNZ briefing notes; if safety concerns can not be resolved then go home (I've always stayed)...
Riders, same crazy nutters as the rest of us. Great to have a beer with.

When the pitbike discussion arose I alway held the belief the simple solution (and within the intent of the class) was a minimum wheel size of 16". Pitbikes could be modified easily (requiring some engineering) to accomodate larger wheels.
Or just slot the engine into a roller. Same view on the use of the YB80s and the mini wheeled NS-50s.

Rider size argument and comfort: sorry this doesn't wash. I'm 6 foot (stuffed hip and back), Scotty bigger again: and I've seen much larger people on FXRs and God, even smaller shit back in the day. It's about setup.

P.s. Where the F##k does this registered rule come from?
It's rubbish.
Never (since circa 1994) have I ever read a rule about being road registered under the MNZ rules...
Some club members used this as a guide to help describe what bikes could be used - it is not a bloody rule...

[mr bucketracer]

can of worms is started to be opened...

So no reduced bore KTM200 Dukes or RG150s or TZR125 or VTR250 cylinder barrels & heads.
What about converted line4s. Or 600cc cut heads. So no cool engineering allowed or out of the box solution. Grey is the colour you get mixing Black and white....

If it is a safety, track protection, stance or dislike let's make sure that decisions are justfied the right way.

so so so so true ...sad times , time us bucket racing got together and had this out over some drinks

[ellipsis]

you are relitigating

...well yes , today I was doing precisely that, but something went wrong and I hurt my knee...it was in sight of my old chinese powered bucket too, luckily it was looking the other way...I have no idea how to break the news to her that she may be relegated to F5...is there any F5's down here?...my wee CG will be heartbroken...ahhh, buckets...I only need one more letter to go faster, can I add an M so it can be an MCG?...

[bucketracer]

message left on my friends answer phone by Brian Steffensen My friend dose not know who he is and Brian Steffensen did not leave a contact number to discuses the issue.

("Just letting you know that to reduce any further confusion we have added a new supplementary
regulation to all of our events going forward and that is.
Pit bikes such as but not limited to Forza Thumpster and Pitsta Pro are not eligible.
And the final discussion as to what does and doesn't constitute a pit bike is at the discretion of the steward of the meeting and the machine examiner.")

What alarms me the most, as it should you, is the finale sentence.

So basically, it doesn't matter if your bike complies with the rules. If they don't like you because you are Male,Female,Black or White, Guy or Straight. They can exclude you by simply referring to your bike as a pit bike and you do not have any recourse what so ever.

Cheers Belinda

Well it looks like you have got your unambiguous answer, your at the track behavior has pissed them off so they have told you to fuck off, having watched you get in their face, cant say I am surprised or unhappy.

[BelindaS]

The pitster pro might well be legal. The bike in question is this one.

http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=38&y=$2,050&nm=FORZA%20155Z

Hi Henk

From the beginning the engine has been the hart of the issue.

So I came on here to asked what defines a competition engine. And seymour14 replied with

It would have been produced by its manufacturer for the sole purpose of racing, to be a competition engine.

I am waiting to find an RS125 commuter bike... Anyone got an aftermarket acetylene lighting kit?

I was further asked did I understand the reply so I answered

The Honda RS125 is a competition Bike/engine
the Aprilia RS125 is not a competition Bike/engine. ( even though it looks like one )

Thank You for everyone's input in helping me with this.

Cheers B

TZ350 added to this with

Attachment 319586

This bike has a competition engine.

Attachment 319587

This bike does not.

For Buckets you start with something non competition like the FXR150 commuter bike, and work on it as much as you wish. The rule is, "based on a non competition engine" then you can hot it up as much as you like.

But pretty much a near std FXR150 will make a very good F4 race bike.

And I replied with this

Hi. TZ350
Thank You for your reply.

If I have this right. The first pic is of a Honda MX bike that competes in FIM sanctioned, malty manufactures, MX bike race. Competing not only for rider points but also Manufacturer points as well. So therefore a competition Bike/engine.
The second pic is of a Ducati Monster 1. A road bike. Which may have competed at club level events or even a one make series. However this still a Non Competition Bike/engine.

I hope that I have this correct

Cheers B

TZ350 replied with

Yes, exactly right, there are factory specific race bikes and factory road bikes. We are allowed to use anything made by the factory for non competition use, which usually means road use. Some exceptions exist, piston and ignition to name two, are open and can come from anything.

There are specific capacity limits for Bucket racers but that does not stop someone using parts from a bigger capacity road bike engine or any non competition motorcycle engine and modifying them in all sorts of ways so long as the final engine capacity is within the Bucket rules.

The majority of Bucket bikes are basically standard FXR150's and a great deal of good racing is done with them. There are only a crazy few who go all out in the tuning stakes, I am not sure it does them any good and you do not have to go there to have a good time with Buckets, unless you want to of course.

PS, Hp on its own is over rated, it is the complete bike and rider package that makes a winning formula.

So my understanding as to this rule, was as long as the engine was from a road going bike. the engine is legal.

The engine in the LXM 155r 12
http://shop.pitsterpro.com/2009lxm155rtwelve.aspx

Is identical to the Forza FXR 155
http://www.nzmotorfactory.co.nz/inde...m=FORZA%20155Z

Both are manufactured and suplied by Zong Sheng (ZS) from China.

So to make this clear the Forza is a re bagged Pitsta Pro for the New Zealand market with Identical engine.

This is no different to
aprila rs 50 same as Derbi gpr 50
aprilia sx 50 same as Derbi DRD X-Treme 50 SM

NZ motor factory sell both the Pitsta Pro and Forza. Again I will state I have no affiliation with NZ motor factory.

The problem as I understand it is possibly two fold
1 - There is a suggestion that most of the pit bikes are "competition" bikes. Certainly some of the promotional literature suggests so. Competition engines are prohibited.
2 - The capacity of the bikes to start with, 155cc. That means they do not technically comply with the MNZ rules which I have posted below. Technically they must start out at a maximum capacity of less than 150cc. They can then be bored to 158.09cc. Technically I think if you started with an earlier 140cc engine, and could get over the "competition engine" hurdle, then you would be OK.

As I said earlier the chassis is OK as there is no mention in the rules about what is a legal chassis.


MNZ RULES:
Solo motorcycles shall have two engine capacity classes:
F4 2 stroke 55-100cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled
4 stroke 55-150cc
F5 2 stroke 0-50cc
4 stroke 0-100cc air cooled

The maximum capacity for rebored engines shall be:
F4 2 stroke 55-110cc
2 stroke 55-125cc air cooled - 130.5cc
4 stroke 55-150cc – 158.09cc

Hi Speedpro

As to your first point the engine is available from a road legal bike. I could also add, just because it has a sticker or advertising blurb saying its a competition model does this make it so.
And to your second point about cc size, we gave information to different people about a crank that was used to bring the bike under the 150cc F4 rule.
This one
http://shop.pitsterpro.com/53mmgpxyx150crank.aspx

This crank was installed a ran for some time, then broke. At that point the standard crank of 55mm was put back in. Which still complied with the 158.06 over bore rule.

As some are a wear the engine is based of a Honda CT 110. the engine comes in many different sizes from 125cc up to 160cc by changing bore or stroke.
Their are three cranks that fit this bike 53mm =149.85cc 55mm = 155.51cc and 57mm = 161.16cc the bore is 60mm.

LXM155, pity that is not the bike in question.




Belinda is this the bike? you can register this in NZ???? for what? duck shooting? certainly not for road use as it is.

Imported Derbies were registered and used on the road here in NZ. There may even be a photo of Chambers one on the ESE thread.

Hi bucketracer
They are different bikes but the same engine. As I have explained

Cheers B

[jasonu]

The first line of the first paragraph . . . . .

Well that is that!!!