Rule change submissions close 1 March 2016 - be in to win.

[F5 Dave]

Your post kinda sums it up Mike.

[jasonu]

Makes me laugh. All this chatter about changing the rules to make different configuration bikes competitive, and, I'll call it "axe grinding", about certain bikes with European sourced engines and also how watercooled 2Ts have such an advantage. The European engine bike makes a whopping 24hp, less than a few others at Mt Wgtn at the moment, and gives nearly everybody a good ass-whooping. The lap record, again at Mt Wgtn, has recently been held by the aforementioned bike or an Aprilia chassis with an MB100 aircooled engine making a huge 22hp. Okay, both are 2Ts, but the FXR brigade is not far behind and there are a couple of extremely fast 125cc 2Ts as well. The lap records are held by the fastest riders who could probably go even faster on a more powerful bike. Lap records must surely be a good measure of where things are at performance wise and they are saying the rider is of more significance.
We also have a European engine 50cc 2T bike doing 30s, or less, can't remember. On top of that we now have Gary on the John Connor Honda XL100 also in the 30s. You couldn't get 2 much more different bikes and yet it will be only them and Tim, if he turns up, battling at the front of F5. Funny thing is both those F5 bikes would be competitive in F4, not because of the bike/engine but because of the riders.

Personally I think there is some worthwhile tinkering to be done with the 4T capacity limits/how many valves/cooling scheme. I wonder what bikes the suggested changes would allow and who would be in a position to make them competitive.

Otherwise, if it isn't broken, and I'm convinced it isn't, then don't fix it.

Just because someone chooses to go down a different path to you doesn't mean the rules need to be changed to make your path the only one to be taken.

Wot he said!!!!!

[F5 Dave]

And then there is the 20mm carb restriction rule for 100cc 4T's in F5.

It is probably a rule that could be usefully dropped.

In the face of 14+ hp Derbie/Aprilia 50's with their off the shelf cylinders and other hotup bits it makes no sense to limit an old 8hp Honda 100 to a 20mm carb, that you can't easily get anyway.

Well to be fair a 2:1 ratio has again and again been shown to be unfair in MX and road racing.

If that was 2 valve hondas OK. But there's a heap of pit bike tuning stuff that gets pretty serious if you spend the money. Or destroke an FXR. A 24hp tune would become a 16hp engine, maybe hope the carb restrictions reduce that a little. Also large valve head for a 100 and lower piston speed. A 27hp tune would be 18hp.

But you also get a better spread with the 4 stroke. Don't just compare peak power outputs.

[TZ350]

If that was 2 valve hondas OK. But you also get a better spread with the 4 stroke. Don't just compare peak power outputs.

Yes, Honda 100, hadn't thought about other options....

And agree hp isn't everything, spread and ease of use play a big part and explains the FXR's success in F4. Also it is why people should not get too hung up on bigger 2T hp numbers in F4.

[TZ350]

I'm unsure if the so called 'arms race' is real or just standard Kiwibiker talk, or just perceived as being a real thing because of a 110cc rule change.

Kel and I talked to day and agreed that probably the only thing that would happen if Nathanial rode Kels 28hp 125, would be that he would just kick our arses harder and win by a greater margin and if we rode his 22hp bike our chances would probably not have improved.

I had been made aware that there was serious talk about limiting the arms race, it was all hush hush secret squirrel stuff. If it is true, the way I see it is, we get three choices.

(1) Take what comes.
(2) Object and shoot down if you can whatever is proposed because it does not suit you.
(3) Get proactive and float some ideas of our own and see what comes of it, even if it is maintaining the status quo or tidying up an issue like what size is a 24mm carb realy.

If you have not been proactive then come the 1st of March you have forgone the chance to improve things and only have options 1 and 2 left.

Unless you want to take what you're given then a bit of a group chat like we are doing here, before submissions close might be a good idea.

That way anything sensible can be proposed as a rule change and/or intelligent submissions can be made in April on any "for the good of the sport" personal agenda proposals that some secret squirrel group may be trying to quietly slip through.

Forewarned about what we are all thinking is forearmed and our best chance of keeping it sensible and the way we as a group think it should be.

Don't be shy about floating an idea because you will only get flamed, have your eyes gouged out with hot spoons, stabbed with pitchforks and burnt at the stake KiwiBiker style by people you enjoy as friends .... see nothing to be shy about at all.

[TALLIS]

I would say... if you have a problem with anyone else's bike who is "unfair" build one yourself, leave the rules as is. If you want to be a cock sucker and by barrels from Europe, well we can all play at that game, so its no unfair. Why change the rules? look at whats out there, see whats best (in your mind), build one. Then ride the thing and win! not an easy feat, but doable. I just got toweled today, by the next big thing......

[timg]

My suggestion

Two stroke air-cooled engines may be used to a maximum size including rebores of 130.5cc.
Providing that, at some point in the inlet tract(s) between atmosphere and crankcase or barrel, the inlet tract(s) shall not exceed an area of 452mm2.
For the purposes of measurement, carburettor air bleed jets and orifices shall be ignored.
The point for measurement shall maintain the restricted diameter for a minimum length in the tract(s) of at least 2.0mm.

I would say... if you have a problem with anyone else's bike who is "unfair" build one yourself, leave the rules as is. If you want to be a cock sucker and by barrels from Europe, well we can all play at that game, so its no unfair. Why change the rules? look at whats out there, see whats best (in your mind), build one. Then ride the thing and win! not an easy feat, but doable. I just got toweled today, by the next big thing......

I don't want no changes, except clarification of the 24mm carb restriction which MNZ have recently confused even more We've all made our choice of machinery based on our needs, abilities, budgets, pet prejudices, likes and dislikes. There will never be a completely level playing field. Both 2T & 4T will continue to develop under the present rules as will the one off 'special' engines being worked on by Sketchy, GPR and others. It's working - don't break it.

[F5 Dave]

Yeah. Get a bit more worried about where you are going to buy tyres from when the 125s disappear, maybe as early as next year.

[husaberg]

Ok ok. I will bite. Tell me how the above hurts the sport? Explain to me how this really hurts the sport. "THE SPORT" as in motorcycle racing. Not fucking about in your shed. I think the best change that should be submitted is open mods and capacity restricted. I think they might get submitted this year. F4. Water cooled 2 strokes 104cc and under. Air cooled 2 strokes 126cc and under. Water cooled 4 valve 4 strokes 152cc and under. Air cooled 4 strokes 170cc and under. Air cool 2 valve 4 strokes 192cc and under. F5 52cc open 2 strokes 104cc open 4 strokes.


Fuck yeah. Lets do it. Who's with me?

Rich call me suspicious, but please define what how a FXR fits into this

Why is there a carb size rule? It's not like carbs are a big ticket item.
Surely making carbs open would very quickly sort out what size carb is best for maximum performance & the playing field would be level again in no time & one less complex & potentially variable rule to police.
Pre '82 senior has open carb size & we each have our own favourite recipie that works best for us.

The carb size restriction is a form of restriction designed to argument the increased engine size of the air cooled engine. remember the rules were originally formulated for only up to 100cc 2 strokes and 125 four strokes, (plus an allowance for few rebores)
they were then changed a few times to allow the 125 2 strokes (air-cooled only with additional carb restriction) plus then the GL145 then the FXR150's

[TZ350]

I don't want no changes, except clarification of the 24mm carb restriction which MNZ have recently confused even more

Yep, agreed about changes but clarification of the 24 thing is the bit that interests me too.

[speedpro]

Buying bits from Europe seems to be a bit of a cause for concern. What about FI from Taiwan or Lectron carbs from the USA or Honda RS125 chassis' from Oz? Maybe there needs to be a rule about buying stuff only from here in NZ. Or maybe an annual $ limit on overseas purchases, receipts to be sighted, limit to be inclusive of GST and all import duties and taxes, and to vary from country to country. TPPA would need to be taken into consideration. Or we could go the Aussie route and have homologated motorcycles. Not standard production then not allowed, production road going or trail / farm bike chassis being the only options. All rules that make about as much sense as some of those proposed by the axe grinders amongst us.

[Bert]

Descending into axe grinding....

As I see it (having not been around as long a Speedpro, F5Dave and a few other). I watched the class change generally for the better.

In lifting of the fourstroke capacity from 125-145-150odd changed this for the best (else it is unlikely we would talking now about buckets - FXRs made the class)...

Introduction of the 125 air cooled twostrokes - really didn't add anything to the twostroke numbers - not really sure why - maybe as the FXRs were just easier for the current gen.

People tinkered, GP machinery came up (frames, wheels etc.) all within the existing rules. Engines went in and the class changed a little bit (closer to a full blown race class). Home engineering started again and other cool stuff started to fall out of the woodwork (frames, significant Hp increases for four strokes within rule constraints). Some very cool efforts and results have been made on two strokes as well and shared with the masses - all within the constraints of the rules.

Access to international parts. Grey zone but not limited by the rules - Game changers,mprimarily cost and availability. Significant engine performance could be gained by more people... Then enter 50cc upgrade/big bore kits. Cleaver and hats off to those that took advantage under the rules.
Championships have been won by good fit riders on good machines (this is the general accepted result in Motorsport) - it's a combination: Mikes comments earlier on around lap times in Auckland provides context to this comment.

Rules...
It's been left by our governing body to be self policing, most of us whom contribute to this - generally have left it as it is controlled by the general Sprit of the class. So there can't really be any bitching and moaning: as it should have been addressed early on.

2016 rules fuckup... Our governing body has attempted to clean up the wider rules documentation for motorcycle racing and in doing so (while introducing some new rules) have made a bloody mess that needs cleaning up ASAP - any club running the GP needs to consider supplementary rules to correct for the errors/discrepancies or hope that the spirt is stronger than the individuals...

Rewriting current rules. Before anything else gets added I'd suggest that the current intended rules get cleaned up into a workable set that can be in forced (that matches the sprit). Then consideration is needed to mop up the grey areas (with consideration to status quo). This may well require the introduction of a new class (covering almost GP spec machinery) and more classical intended classes (more production like class).

[gav]

To still allow innovation I'd word it something along the lines of "commercially available aftermarket replacement parts shall be identical to the OE parts they replace."
Bloody internet purchasing has changed the landscape.

So does this include Camshafts, exhausts, pistons, carbs etc as well ?

[TZ350]

Buying bits from Europe seems to be a bit of a cause for concern. What about FI from Taiwan or Lectron carbs from the USA or Honda RS125 chassis' from Oz?

Purchasing over the Net is so quick and reliable and anyone can do it, it has become a routine part of modern life. The only question is the legitimacy of what is purchased.

[TZ350]

Rewriting current rules. Before anything else gets added I'd suggest that the current intended rules get cleaned up into a workable set that can be enforced (that matches the sprit).

What is the spirit of Bucket Racing? I expect it is a bit different for different people and that is one of its beauties. Before trying to tidy up the rules, maybe we could start by expressing what the spirit of Bucket Racing means to us as individuals.

For me it's the ethos of unrestrained but affordable development within some basic rules.