The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread?

[TheDemonLord]

If you could point me to the exact post where you did so, that would be great.

Thanks.

Ask and Ye shall receive. Have you decided to answer either question put to you yet?

[Katman]

Ask and Ye shall receive. Have you decided to answer either question put to you yet?

So I'm going to take that as a "no, I don't support handing over prisoners in the knowledge that they will be tortured".

Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

[Katman]

So from a morality point of view, is handing over prisoners to local authorities, in the knowledge that they will be tortured, really any different from torturing them yourself?

[TheDemonLord]

So I'm going to take that as a "no, I don't support handing over prisoners in the knowledge that they will be tortured".

Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

It's not a simple question and so does not deserve a simple answer.

So from a morality point of view, is handing over prisoners to local authorities, in the knowledge that they will be tortured, really any different from torturing them yourself?

To answer that, YOU have to answer whether that knowledge justifies interference with another countries sovereignty.

[Katman]

To answer that, YOU have to answer whether that knowledge justifies interference with another countries sovereignty.

Are you asking whether the knowledge that a country carries out torture justifies invading that country?

[TheDemonLord]

Are you asking whether the knowledge that a country carries out torture justifies invading that country?

No, I'm asking whether or not it justifies invading and taking over the entire societal structure of that country to ensure that Torture doesn't happen.

[Katman]

No, I'm asking whether or not it justifies invading and taking over the entire societal structure of that country to ensure that Torture doesn't happen.

Well I suppose that depends on the level of moral outrage you have regarding torture.

But you can hardly use the fact that a dictator tortures people as justification to invade a country if you then hand over prisoners to the local authorities in the knowledge that they will be tortured.

[TheDemonLord]

Well I suppose that depends on the level of moral outrage you have regarding torture.

And what level do you have? Does it justify it? That's the question you've not answered. Because if it doesn't then you tacitly agree with Dictators, Torture and Genocide, if those things are more preferable to you than getting metaphorical blood on your metaphorical hands.

I've been clear on my level of Moral Outrage when it comes to murderous dictators and happily draw a line in the sand that if every such institution had their doors kicked in, taken over and a proper governmental system put in place with sufficient oversight, I'd not be shedding too many tears.

I'd even go so far as to say that if several of the more egregious ones were unceremoniously Colonised, then perhaps the rest of them would very quickly pull their heads in lest the same fate befall them.

But you can hardly use the fact that a dictator tortures people as justification to invade a country if you then hand over prisoners to the local authorities in the knowledge that they will be tortured.

As I said, in order to ensure that, they would need to go further and actually create an Empire/Colony/whatever you want to call it. See above for my position on this.

Still doesn't answer YOUR position on this.

[Katman]

And what level do you have? Does it justify it? That's the question you've not answered. Because if it doesn't then you tacitly agree with Dictators, Torture and Genocide, if those things are more preferable to you than getting metaphorical blood on your metaphorical hands.

I don't support torture in any way, shape or form.

But I also don't support invading a country on the pretext that it's nasty dictator tortures people.

Especially when the invading army then hands over prisoners to local authorities for torture.

Now I'm sure you won't be happy with that answer - but hey, it's the answer you're getting.

[TheDemonLord]

I don't support torture in any way, shape or form.

But I also don't support invading a country on the pretext that it's nasty dictator tortures people.

Especially when the invading army then hands over prisoners to local authorities for torture.

Now I'm sure you won't be happy with that answer - but hey, it's the answer you're getting.

Which is having a buck either way.

Each option has implications for the other.

So no, you haven't answered the Question.

Either you don't support Torture and are therefore happy for action to be taken to stop it
Or
You don't support action taken to stop Torture and are therefore happy for it to continue.

Pick.
One.

[Katman]

So no, you haven't answered the Question.

Called it.

[TheDemonLord]

Called it.

Of course - cause you know as well as I do that you didn't answer it.

The funniest part is that you could answer it in such a manner qualifying the amount and degree of torture going on vs the potential amount of death and destruction that would be caused by going in.

At least such a cost/benefit analysis would be honest.

What we get however is just the same when I called you a Pacifist who refuses to acknowledge that you are - There is no situation you will name where you will approve of any action that results in innocent loss of life.

Just like you will say two contradictory statements and not declare on one or the other.

[Katman]

The funniest part is that you could answer it in such a manner qualifying the amount and degree of torture going on vs the potential amount of death and destruction that would be caused by going in.

At least such a cost/benefit analysis would be honest.

Yes, but I'm not autistic.

[TheDemonLord]

Yes, but I'm not autistic.

And neither am I.

What it is, however is that you're just not willing to stand on your supposed principals.

[Murray]

Life would be so much easier if you addressed questions with a simple answer.

Quote of 2020 already in!!!