The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread?

[sugilite:Me]

WTF, a motorcycle video in the USA Presidential thread! Parts of it do apply, a bloody good video by a gifted dude whose work I admire. Seriously, mainstream non bikers would probs even like videos like this...

[pritch]

[QUOTE=sugilite;1131162342]WTF, a motorcycle video in the USA Presidential thread! Parts of it do apply, a bloody good video by a gifted dude whose work I admire. Seriously, mainstream non bikers would probs even like videos like this...

I've seen a number of his video clips but the production values in that waaaay outshine anything of his work I'd seen previously. I'm going to take a wild guess that Harley didn't finance that though.

[TheDemonLord]

Trump "Free Michigan, they are coming for your guns and second amendment rights"
As they say, where there is smoke there is fire, this was full on flames. Your points are weak in the wake of that bullshit direct from Trump.
And the text you quoted me on has nothing to do with the Russian investigation or who has not accepted what. (Another other thing is, in my opinion - Trump will absolutely do his utmost best to start a civil war in an attempt to hold onto power should he lose this year.) Par of the course for you.

I don't think so - but let's address the first comment, cause I think this is a really interesting point of discussion:

Is encouraging people to defend their Constitutional rights the same as starting a Civil War?

I, personally, do not. I can see a number of arguments that would affirm the above, but all of them require a number of a priori statements, such as the acknowledging that the catalyst is the State infringing on people's rights (and not just abstract rights, codified-explicitly-in-your-founding-and-foundational-legal-document-rights).

But it's an interesting Question.

Just like the right wing press did to Obama before him. Will I find quotes from you in Kiwibikers past complaining that Obama got the same such treatment? I'm betting 100% not. As mentioned what the media say is pointless noise, get over it. What is important is what actions these polis take, and the action or lack thereof that Trump took both fucked the economy and killed thousands. Your arguments look more and more out of touch with reality, because the man you are defending is getting further and further from sanity. I know you like a good argument as you have stated, but I'm beginning to feel it is absolutely pointless to engage you in discussion - as it is all bullshit DYPAAC.

That's a false dichotomy for 2 reasons.

The first being is that I would have voted for Obama (although with hindsight, I wouldn't have) and things like the Birth Certificate story were complete fabrications. I'm not sure if you can find an explicit quote from me during that time period to say that, but it remains true.

but more relevent one is - in terms of national Right-Wing TV news organisations - you've got Fox, Sky News Australia and? What about Left-Wing News Organisations? You've got the BBC, CNN, MSNBC, All of NZ's Media, etc. etc. The select few Right-Wing outlets having a dig at Obama is not the same as the vast majority of Left-wing outlets condemning Trump as Evil incarnate.

Finally some common ground. Yes, self isolating was a stupid idea, it was never going to happen. But the Government made up for it after that and got it right.

You say got it right, I say they made everyone else suffer for their incompetence - which seems to be a pattern of behavior - coupled that with zero acknowledgement from the Government that the reason we had to go into lockdown, was due to the Community Transmission from those overseas visitors.

You do not mention what countries exactly, but many that had success before with their first measures are now experiencing a much more serious second wave. They did not go hard enough or keep their foot on the peddle long enough. I pray we have not made the same mistake. Time will tell. I'm cautiously optimistic. Over reaction? hardly.

Australia and Taiwan are the ones I'm thinking of. Over-Reaction - well that's a matter of Opinion, of course - but I stand by that statement. See below for clarification

No lets not.

No, Let's. It's point is to show that the absolutist statement is demonstrably wrong. The Economy matters because all of those things that we like to do (Hospitals, Roading, Police etc.) have a cost - and ruining the Economy whilst chanting 'BUT WE ARE SAVING LIVES' is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

I don't think so, and yeah, as mentioned a large number of those countries are experiencing the start of a second wave. I'm not sure Aussie have got away with it yet either.

Maybe, maybe not.

At this point, I think that there should still be a quarantine for at-risk groups (Elderly especially, those with pre-existing health conditions etc.) Although even then, I'm not sure it should be 'enforced', more along the lines of 'strongly encouraged and if you get sick and die, it's your own fault for not listening' - Having a layered, proportional response is what I'd have liked to have seen - but instead we had a sudden and tyrannical jump to the most restrictive measure and that IMO was the Over-reaction. Even after 2 weeks of total lockdown when it was clear we weren't seeing the Volume of Cases that other countries had, a review and a relaxation to Level 3 would have been appropriate IMO.

You mean if perhaps Trump actually took the time to read briefings? If he had, he would of realized earlier that there was the smell of a dead rat coming from the stats released by China.
But he does not read such things does he? As he admits - the stable genius goes on his gut feeling, and his gut is busy killing thousands as a result.
He was never qualified to take the position of President in good times, yet alone bad. Now the voters are reaping what they voted for. And just before you jump on the keyboard, I best head you off at the pass - in no way is my comment to be construed as to what Hillary might have done or not done as President, I simply don't care, because she lost, so no point speculating eh. (Though I have the faintest feeling she would of read the briefings eh

Let me answer this in a different way - despite all that has come to pass and come to light, there are still vast swathes of the Media and the political class that are refusing to condemn China.

Chinese money, investment, influence and ownership has resulted in many fingers in many pies.

Upsetting that Apple Cart will have a massive effect on the Global Economy - to the point where although I 100% agree on the principle that something needs to be done, the pragmatist in me says that we've got a Bed that is made and now we have to find the best way to sleep in it. I'm not sure that that sentence quite conveys how much it pains me to say that.

Linking back to the answer - The odor of deceased Rodent may not have been proof enough to start down the path of taking on China (even though without the Pandemic there are and were a myriad of reasons why one should do so) - but when more concrete proof came to light, he has done what no-one else had the balls to do (except Australia and their Inquiry - although China now 'wants to be a part' - one only has to look at the WHO to wonder why they want in....).

[pritch]

Random thought: The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution reads as follows:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The armed wannabe 'Meal Team Six' fuckwits that invaded their state legislature were in no way a "well regulated militia". They should have been rounded up and thrown in prison.

[TheDemonLord]

Random thought: The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution reads as follows:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The armed wannabe 'Meal Team Six' fuckwits that invaded their state legislature were in no way a "well regulated militia". They should have been rounded up and thrown in prison.

Whilst I agree on the wording, There's various US Supreme court case law as to what the interpretation of 'Well regulated Militia'

[sugilite:Me]

I don't think so - but let's address the first comment, cause I think this is a really interesting point of discussion:

Is encouraging people to defend their Constitutional rights the same as starting a Civil War?

I, personally, do not. I can see a number of arguments that would affirm the above, but all of them require a number of a priori statements, such as the acknowledging that the catalyst is the State infringing on people's rights (and not just abstract rights, codified-explicitly-in-your-founding-and-foundational-legal-document-rights).

But it's an interesting Question.

Funny he only mentioned States he really needs to win, and ones with Democrat Governors, coincidence? He gives not one shit about peoples "rights". Just that he gets back in.

That's a false dichotomy for 2 reasons.

The first being is that I would have voted for Obama (although with hindsight, I wouldn't have) and things like the Birth Certificate story were complete fabrications. I'm not sure if you can find an explicit quote from me during that time period to say that, but it remains true.

but more relevent one is - in terms of national Right-Wing TV news organisations - you've got Fox, Sky News Australia and? What about Left-Wing News Organisations? You've got the BBC, CNN, MSNBC, All of NZ's Media, etc. etc. The select few Right-Wing outlets having a dig at Obama is not the same as the vast majority of Left-wing outlets condemning Trump as Evil incarnate.

Somehow the number of outlets makes a difference in the left and righs msg that gets put out? Left watch the left, right watches the right, sad really. However, back to what actually counts - The guys actions are tantamount to murder. He knows damn well his actions and lack thereof and ill advice is killing people. He is evil incarnate - open your bloody eyes and ears, it is all there in plain sight through tweets and video from the shithead himself.

You say got it right, I say they made everyone else suffer for their incompetence - which seems to be a pattern of behavior - coupled that with zero acknowledgement from the Government that the reason we had to go into lockdown, was due to the Community Transmission from those overseas visitors.

What is it? They went to soft, or too hard - you just twist it to suit what ever hypothesis your peddling at the time. There was barely any community transmission when they went stage 3 btw, soon as it turned up, they had to act fast. If they had gone harder earlier you would have been up and arms about that too you hypocrite. How handy it is you have the power of hindsight to apply your judgements and "what I would have dones".

Australia and Taiwan are the ones I'm thinking of. Over-Reaction - well that's a matter of Opinion, of course - but I stand by that statement. See below for clarification

No, Let's. It's point is to show that the absolutist statement is demonstrably wrong. The Economy matters because all of those things that we like to do (Hospitals, Roading, Police etc.) have a cost - and ruining the Economy whilst chanting 'BUT WE ARE SAVING LIVES' is cutting your nose off to spite your face.

Comparing one person with a pandemic? Pitiful and desperate.

At this point, I think that there should still be a quarantine for at-risk groups (Elderly especially, those with pre-existing health conditions etc.) Although even then, I'm not sure it should be 'enforced', more along the lines of 'strongly encouraged and if you get sick and die, it's your own fault for not listening' - Having a layered, proportional response is what I'd have liked to have seen - but instead we had a sudden and tyrannical jump to the most restrictive measure and that IMO was the Over-reaction. Even after 2 weeks of total lockdown when it was clear we weren't seeing the Volume of Cases that other countries had, a review and a relaxation to Level 3 would have been appropriate IMO.

For me, they went back to stage 3 at the earliest prudently possible, maybe a bit early. Same for stage 2. I'm with the pandemic experts that say we should not go to stage one until 4 weeks (2 virus life cycles) have passed with no new cases. I choose the experts over your opinion on this.

Let me answer this in a different way - despite all that has come to pass and come to light, there are still vast swathes of the Media and the political class that are refusing to condemn China.

Chinese money, investment, influence and ownership has resulted in many fingers in many pies.

Upsetting that Apple Cart will have a massive effect on the Global Economy - to the point where although I 100% agree on the principle that something needs to be done, the pragmatist in me says that we've got a Bed that is made and now we have to find the best way to sleep in it. I'm not sure that that sentence quite conveys how much it pains me to say that.

Well and good, but nowhere in my writing have I defended or stuck up for China in my posts. Quite the opposite.
When Trump praised them, I went WTF? If it was obvious to a mostly ignorant Sugilite on the arse end of the World that the released stats were wiffy in the extreme, then why was the so called leader of the free World seemingly completely unaware despite the fact he has incredible resources in gathered intelligence at his disposal? Oh wait, I covered that - it is because he does not read his briefs, something that really stood out to me that you in no way attempted to address. Free pass for Trump! Kill shit tons of people, Free pass for Trump, Start armed protests, Free pass for Trump. BTW, see the reports of the rise in pandemic cases in the areas the protesters were active at 2 weeks later? Wait, no let me guess - Free pass for Trump.

As mentioned I have been having thoughts on engaging you in posts. Reading over what you have written in our latest banter. It has solidified in my mind, you actually appear to share a lot of Trumps qualities, low levels of value on life, corruption is ok, as long as it is groups you don't happen to like that are being affected and sowing seeds of hate and division is also ok too, as long as the groups you despise are the ones gnashing their teeth etc - I could go on and on with examples. With this in mind, my respect for you and your opinions has bottomed out to the point that for the first time in my 14 year kb history - I'm going to put someone on my ignore list. That is an achievement in itself I guess. Go you.

[Katman]

Reading over what you have written in our latest banter. It has solidified in my mind, you actually appear to share a lot of Trumps qualities, low levels of value on life, corruption is ok, as long as it is groups you don't happen to like that are being affected and sowing seeds of hate and division is also ok too, as long as the groups you despise are the ones gnashing their teeth etc - I could go on and on with examples.

Ask him about the 500,000 dead Iraqi children.

[TheDemonLord]

Funny he only mentioned States he really needs to win, and ones with Democrat Governors, coincidence? He gives not one shit about peoples "rights". Just that he gets back in.

Sure, he's got a motive, no argument from me there. But it's not like it isn't part of the Democrat agenda to infringe on the 2A.

Somehow the number of outlets makes a difference in the left and righs msg that gets put out? Left watch the left, right watches the right, sad really. However, back to what actually counts - The guys actions are tantamount to murder. He knows damn well his actions and lack thereof and ill advice is killing people. He is evil incarnate - open your bloody eyes and ears, it is all there in plain sight through tweets and video from the shithead himself.

I'll use the BBC as a reference - they are state funded and have in their charter an obligation to be neutral. They are not, they have a demonstrable left-wing bias. It's the same with the vast majority of Media Outlets - so yes, the Number and Size does make a difference. As for the rest - calling him a Murderer? I hate to say it, but that is Peak TDS.

What is it? They went to soft, or too hard - you just twist it to suit what ever hypothesis your peddling at the time. There was barely any community transmission when they went stage 3 btw, soon as it turned up, they had to act fast. If they had gone harder earlier you would have been up and arms about that too you hypocrite. How handy it is you have the power of hindsight to apply your judgements and "what I would have dones".

It's not twisting - I've been a Tourist to NZ before I moved here and based on the experience, I know exactly how I'd have behaved if I was a tourist coming into the country, given a leaflet that told me to stay in my hotel for 2 weeks - which would be 'Fuck that'. You even yourself agreed that it was flawed when you ran the scenario hypothetically, so I'm not sure why this is an argument.

Because they implemented a plan that was so obviously doomed to fail (if you just thought about it for 5 minutes), they then had to go ultra-restrictive.

Comparing one person with a pandemic? Pitiful and desperate.

'But we are literally Saving lives'

Or do you want to acknowledge that the Economic cost of 'saving lives' can do more damage in the long run?

For me, they went back to stage 3 at the earliest prudently possible, maybe a bit early. Same for stage 2. I'm with the pandemic experts that say we should not go to stage one until 4 weeks (2 virus life cycles) have passed with no new cases. I choose the experts over your opinion on this.

Fair enough, will you also choose the Economic Experts opinion too? And when each set of Experts are in conflict with each other - how will you weigh the difference?

Well and good, but nowhere in my writing have I defended or stuck up for China in my posts. Quite the opposite.
When Trump praised them, I went WTF? If it was obvious to a mostly ignorant Sugilite on the arse end of the World that the released stats were wiffy in the extreme, then why was the so called leader of the free World seemingly completely unaware despite the fact he has incredible resources in gathered intelligence at his disposal? Oh wait, I covered that - it is because he does not read his briefs, something that really stood out to me that you in no way attempted to address. Free pass for Trump! Kill shit tons of people, Free pass for Trump, Start armed protests, Free pass for Trump. BTW, see the reports of the rise in pandemic cases in the areas the protesters were active at 2 weeks later? Wait, no let me guess - Free pass for Trump.

That was not aimed at you, but the wider media. Are China's stats dodgy - well, most people assume that anything coming out from a totalitarian government isn't going to be accurate - the question is, what's the threshold for lighting the fuse. You've got your position on where that is, fair enough, I respect that, but these charges that he's killing people or that he's starting a civil war - it's the same hysterical fear mongering we saw when he was running for the the candidacy, when he was nominated, when he won the presidency, at the mid-terms etc. etc. So you'll forgive me if all I see is someone crying wolf even if there may be a wolf.

But let's flip this back - In the area's where there were protests - why? Was it because Trump told them to protest? That's your argument - so let's take that as fair. Why were they protesting? Because the State legislature was trying to force through unconstitutional legislation whilst there was a Quarantine with a hope of passing it whilst no one could protest it - If you want me to condemn trump and 'not give him a free pass' - then where's your condemnation of that? And I'll add to this, Which was the first cause? The call for protest or the law change that the protest was about and as such, which event should bear greater criticism?

As mentioned I have been having thoughts on engaging you in posts. Reading over what you have written in our latest banter. It has solidified in my mind, you actually appear to share a lot of Trumps qualities, low levels of value on life, corruption is ok, as long as it is groups you don't happen to like that are being affected and sowing seeds of hate and division is also ok too, as long as the groups you despise are the ones gnashing their teeth etc - I could go on and on with examples. With this in mind, my respect for you and your opinions has bottomed out to the point that for the first time in my 14 year kb history - I'm going to put someone on my ignore list. That is an achievement in itself I guess. Go you.

If that's your reading of what I think, you've missed some key points.

I place a great value on life, but not an absolute value on life. People die - I'm not God, neither are you, nor is Trump - sometimes there is absolutely nothing we can do. Sometimes you have to make decisions that will condemn (either directly or indirectly) some people to death, in order to achieve a greater end - I don't like it, but it is reality. How many people died fighting in WW2 that were directly sent in to die? Yet, we both agree it was right to do so, because inaction would have resulted in more people dying. We can hold lofty ideals that 'we don't play a numbers game with human life' but that is exactly what we do. You want me to agree that it's shitty and sucks? I absolutely do, but it doesn't make it any less real.

Corruption? I'm not a huge fan of it, but I'm also a pragmatist - when you have more than 2 people working together, nepotism, favouritism, favors and other forms of Corruption are inevitable - all we can do is try and put boundaries on it to make it as small as possible. For every accusation of Corruption that's been levelled against Trump - there is an equal if not greater amount wafting from the DNC.

Happening to groups I don't like? I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion - Hell, I've had to support the likes of Alex Jones (even though I don't like him) when it comes to principles of Free Speech - there's a few groups I will admit that I've felt pangs of satisfaction when they've been torn down by the monsters they actively created (whilst hurling vitriol at the likes of me for pointing out they are doing something terrible) - but even then, the underlying principle that I was opposed to in the first place remained unchanged.

Hate and Division? Not a fan of Either, You should do some reading on the correlation between the rises in Political Correctness and the deepening of hatred and division. The current Vogue of left-wing politics (intersectionality) is entirely about Hatred and Division, in a blind attempt to somehow 'equalise' the differences between individuals. If anything, my opposition to this form of Politics is proof that I'm opposed to Hatred and Division. Everytime I hear someone stand-up and proclaim their victim status as a PoC or 'Person of Colour' - all I hear is someone saying 'Coloureds' like some racist from the 60s. Everytime I see a TV show where the cast was clearly picked so as to fulfill the prescribed 'acceptable' quotas of minority characters, all I see is Tokenism and to quote Morgan Freeman who said it best "I don't know how to wake up as a black man, I only know how to Wake up".

if that's how you see it and you feel the need to block me, then fair enough. I'll extend the same courtesy to you as I do to everyone else who feels the need: should you ever be around parts where I am, I'll still be happy to buy you a beer.

[pritch]

Far from the strangest thing in the US currently, but the most effective public opposition to Trump is coming from the Lincoln Project - all of whom are from his own party. Meanwhile the Democrats are sleep walking toward the election.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHjJydZO99A

[pritch]

There's this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52733220

Which is taking this to extremes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2Wx230gYJw

[FJRider]

Random thought: The 2nd Amendment to the US Constitution reads as follows:

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

The armed wannabe 'Meal Team Six' fuckwits that invaded their state legislature were in no way a "well regulated militia". They should have been rounded up and thrown in prison.

The meaning of "Bear arms" is ... to participate in military operations as a member of the armed forces. (Look it up) It is NOT just owning and/or carrying a firearm while not being in a formed military unit.

One thing to remember, If your side takes no prisoners ... there's a good chance the "other side" wont either ...

To engage in any "hostilities" as a member of any undisciplined unit ... it will be the worst case of suicide you'll ever experience ...

[FJRider]

Ask him about the 500,000 dead Iraqi children.

In some parts of the world ... they put a mob of cattle or sheep in a minefield to clear it.

Other places send their children. They hold their stock as having more value.

1939-45 ... children died in Berlin and London. And a few more cities as well.

Were the deaths intentional ... or casualties of war ... ???

[pritch]

To engage in any "hostilities" as a member of any undisciplined unit ... it will be the worst case of suicide you'll ever experience ...

Those idiots that went armed into their state legislature with the intention of intimidating all and sundry could reasonably described as terrorists and could justifiably be treated as such.

Long ago I learned about 'internal security' and The Riot Act etc, but I don't think the US bother overmuch with such impediments. The events at Kent State certainly suggested they didn't.

[pritch]

Trump loves the military. There's another one for the simple minded.

Here's what Trump actually thinks of the military.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-267514

[sugilite:Me]

Trump loves the military. There's another one for the simple minded.

Here's what Trump actually thinks of the military.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/0...navirus-267514

Yep, yet more chicanery and duplicitous behavior from this abhorrent administration.
The thing I've been pondering is - when your a President and you get told a pandemic is coming, many are already dying in other countries, and your health officials tell you it is already spreading through the country you govern. When that president then tries to bury the truth in a naive believe their lies will save the stock market. When this president knows that these lies and many others he is telling will absolutely cost lives - how is that not premeditated murder?