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Thread: The American (USA) 2016 presidential elections thread?

  1. #7006
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    FOX is largely responsible for the massive ignorance of a large part of the US population and the resulting increasingly extreme divergence of political views within the country and within families.

    Following a recent report about a meeting of judges during which an argument started and two of the judges were shot dead, the thought occurs that the Thanksgiving holiday might be marred by violence. Families are split by their political views to the extent that some people no longer acknowledge those family members holding opposing views. Some are attending events with friends rather than family. It might be safer that way.
    There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop

  2. #7007
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    Quote Originally Posted by husaberg View Post
    Picture
    I completely agree, So many people think Socialism and Communism is Cool these days because they haven't had a proper Education....
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  3. #7008
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    I completely agree, So many people think Socialism and Communism is Cool these days because they haven't had a proper Education....
    Au contraire - more likely "because" they had a (so called) proper education. -
    "The very essence of the banking industry; to make us all, (whether we be nations or individuals), slaves to debt!" ... is it working for them yet?

    Debt explained: http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/debt/

  4. #7009
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrider View Post
    Au contraire - more likely "because" they had a (so called) proper education. -
    Well spotted...

    Good times to be had with the use (and Abuse) of the word 'proper'
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    Well spotted...

    Good times to be had with the use (and Abuse) of the word 'proper'
    I thought that my past education was quite satisfactory, and I've
    tried to improve it ever since leaving school.

    But now I'm having doubts. Maybe even socialist thoughts. Perhaps
    you could help me ?

    This "socialism" thing you talk about ? I'm Ok with understanding
    the formal definition:

    "a political and economic theory of social organization which
    advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange
    should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole".

    But in this current world of black and white, is there still any
    room for shades of grey ?

    It's just that I know a few Social Democrats back in Scandinavia.
    I might even have some in my extended family (for all I know).

    And I had a few lingering questions:

    Are they suspect ? Should I continue to associate with them ? Will
    the GCSB come and have a wee talk with me in the future ?

    Should I poke fun at their health, education and welfare systems ?

    Should I poke fun at their banking and financial systems, and their
    levels of state debt ?

    Should I tell them that their country should aspire more to emulate
    the political and social situation in other western countries, like (say)
    the US ? or the UK ? or France ?

    Should I tell them that their government should buy more arms, pay
    more to NATO, and send more troops to go fight overseas in regional
    wars initiated by the US ? Oh, and maintain sanctions on Russia and
    China - sorry, I almost forgot.


    Hopefully the Social Democrats are still OK.

    And it's only the true Socialists and Communists that I have to be
    concerned about.

  6. #7011
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    No free thinking allowed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    I thought that my past education was quite satisfactory, and I've
    tried to improve it ever since leaving school.

    But now I'm having doubts. Maybe even socialist thoughts. Perhaps
    you could help me ?
    If you have had a "proper" government approved education you are "NOT" supposed to have any thoughts "other" than those that support the "left or right" options! -
    "The very essence of the banking industry; to make us all, (whether we be nations or individuals), slaves to debt!" ... is it working for them yet?

    Debt explained: http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/debt/

  7. #7012
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    I thought that my past education was quite satisfactory, and I've
    tried to improve it ever since leaving school.

    But now I'm having doubts. Maybe even socialist thoughts. Perhaps
    you could help me ?

    This "socialism" thing you talk about ? I'm Ok with understanding
    the formal definition:

    "a political and economic theory of social organization which
    advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange
    should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole".

    But in this current world of black and white, is there still any
    room for shades of grey ?

    It's just that I know a few Social Democrats back in Scandinavia.
    I might even have some in my extended family (for all I know).

    And I had a few lingering questions:

    Are they suspect ? Should I continue to associate with them ? Will
    the GCSB come and have a wee talk with me in the future ?

    Should I poke fun at their health, education and welfare systems ?

    Should I poke fun at their banking and financial systems, and their
    levels of state debt ?

    Should I tell them that their country should aspire more to emulate
    the political and social situation in other western countries, like (say)
    the US ? or the UK ? or France ?

    Should I tell them that their government should buy more arms, pay
    more to NATO, and send more troops to go fight overseas in regional
    wars initiated by the US ? Oh, and maintain sanctions on Russia and
    China - sorry, I almost forgot.


    Hopefully the Social Democrats are still OK.

    And it's only the true Socialists and Communists that I have to be
    concerned about.
    To answer your questions first and foremost is to draw a clear distinction between Socialism and Social Democracy. There is a lot of very disingenuous argument that conflates the two.

    A Social Democracy is like NZ, the UK, Scandinavia etc. Namely that it is a Capitalist Economy, but the Government does provide some services. In recent times the term has been hijacked by people who want to attach the positives of successful Social Democracies to the Label of Socialism, in order to hide the abyssmal failure of such.

    I should note that there are moves to change the definition of Social Democracy to be more aligned with Socialism (which it isn't).

    Socialism is a stepping point on the road to Communism. Whereas a Social Democracy exists within a Capitalist Economy.

    In typical parlance however, a Social Democracy is used to describe a society that has a primarily Capitalist Economy, with a high amount of Taxation and a large number of Government Programs (AKA Scandinavian Model) to demarc it from setups like the UK and NZ (whereby the difference is the degree of taxation and Social programs as opposed to their existence).

    Such a model is fine, so long as the Economy is doing well and people are paying into the system. Things like the NHS (for example) work great when supported and supporting a majority of tax-paying individuals.

    Things like Socialised Health Care, Education etc. I hold as a Public Good and so should be supplied free at the point of service by the Government (as well as allowing privatised alternatives to exist) but it requires the populace to buy-in, both on a fiscal level buy also a societal level, that such services are there to be used, not abused.

    Currently the NHS in the UK is having issues and one of the factors seems to be large numbers of net-migration since the Blair Government - whereby people who haven't paid into the system are able to use the system.

    When you say Socialist thoughts - it depends what you mean - are you talking about Nationalizing an Industry? Nationalizing ALL industry? Greater Government control? Planned Economies etc? It's not Socialist to want a working Welfare system - I don't want people who find themselves in bad circumstances unable to get back to being productive, contributing members of Society, I also don't want people to be able to abuse the system as a means to not be productive and contributing.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

  8. #7013
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    Debt based financial system is root cause of political system failure!

    Any of the proposed political systems will work effectively and efficiently (or not) depending upon the ability of the elected politicians and the will of the electorate.

    Where they fall down is mainly due to the availability (or not) of a balanced financial system that allows their works to be accomplished.

    The current social debt system is not one of those and that is the crux of the matter I.E. the root cause of almost every governments failure today.

    Private monopoly ownership of the world central banking system is dependant upon secrecy, war, boom and bust for it's own survival let alone survival of any government activity. -
    "The very essence of the banking industry; to make us all, (whether we be nations or individuals), slaves to debt!" ... is it working for them yet?

    Debt explained: http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/debt/

  9. #7014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    I thought that my past education was quite satisfactory, and I've
    tried to improve it ever since leaving school.
    Hmmm. I have spotted a problem as you write every post like a poem with a limit to the number of words per line.

    There's no need now we have got rid of slates.

  10. #7015
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berries View Post
    Hmmm. I have spotted a problem as you write every post like a poem with a limit to the number of words per line.

    There's no need now we have got rid of slates.
    Well, some of us have. I'll try and remember that, and turn my slate into landscape instead of portrait in future.

  11. #7016
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDemonLord View Post
    To answer your questions first and foremost is to draw a clear distinction between Socialism and Social Democracy. There is a lot of very disingenuous argument that conflates the two.

    A Social Democracy is like NZ, the UK, Scandinavia etc. Namely that it is a Capitalist Economy, but the Government does provide some services. In recent times the term has been hijacked by people who want to attach the positives of successful Social Democracies to the Label of Socialism, in order to hide the abyssmal failure of such.

    I should note that there are moves to change the definition of Social Democracy to be more aligned with Socialism (which it isn't).

    Socialism is a stepping point on the road to Communism. Whereas a Social Democracy exists within a Capitalist Economy.

    In typical parlance however, a Social Democracy is used to describe a society that has a primarily Capitalist Economy, with a high amount of Taxation and a large number of Government Programs (AKA Scandinavian Model) to demarc it from setups like the UK and NZ (whereby the difference is the degree of taxation and Social programs as opposed to their existence).

    Such a model is fine, so long as the Economy is doing well and people are paying into the system. Things like the NHS (for example) work great when supported and supporting a majority of tax-paying individuals.

    Things like Socialised Health Care, Education etc. I hold as a Public Good and so should be supplied free at the point of service by the Government (as well as allowing privatised alternatives to exist) but it requires the populace to buy-in, both on a fiscal level buy also a societal level, that such services are there to be used, not abused.

    Currently the NHS in the UK is having issues and one of the factors seems to be large numbers of net-migration since the Blair Government - whereby people who haven't paid into the system are able to use the system.

    When you say Socialist thoughts - it depends what you mean - are you talking about Nationalizing an Industry? Nationalizing ALL industry? Greater Government control? Planned Economies etc? It's not Socialist to want a working Welfare system - I don't want people who find themselves in bad circumstances unable to get back to being productive, contributing members of Society, I also don't want people to be able to abuse the system as a means to not be productive and contributing.

    Good reply, and makes the important distinctions. Thanks.

    In respect to your earlier answer, I'd be interested to hear further:

    - Which specific countries you saw as having tried to "assign benefits of a social democracy to a socialist country in order to (as you
    said) hide the abysmal failure of such".

    - NHS model: I take your point re "excess demand over contribution", though I'm not so sure the problems of the UK NHS are primarily
    due to increased number of immigrants:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20191119...-corbyn-brexit

    - Whether you think social democracies should put more emphasis on military spending, as opposed to their own internal infrastructural
    investment and social spending.

  12. #7017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    Good reply, and makes the important distinctions. Thanks.

    In respect to your earlier answer, I'd be interested to hear further:

    - Which specific countries you saw as having tried to "assign benefits of a social democracy to a socialist country in order to (as you
    said) hide the abysmal failure of such".
    Not specific Countries - more like Socialist/Communist Activists love to cite Scandinavian countries as an example of how Socialism 'can work' whilst omitting that both are Capitalist systems.Typically Norway, Sweden, Denmark get referenced.

    So in a hypothetical Discussion where you might say 'Socialism can't work' - they'll go 'what about Norway, They are pretty much a Socialist country, see SOCIAL democracy' and then point to various government programs as proof, ignoring the fact that it's underpinned by a Capitalist Economy. Doubly fun when you bring up somewhere like Venezuala...

    There's other factors as well at play in those countries - such as a strong national identity and culture which help ensure that Government services are properly used. This does seem to correlate strongly with compulsory national Service in those countries - whereby Citizens have a level of respect for Government property/services that I don't see in other countries.

    I'd perhaps even go so far as to say that the Nordic weather plays a large roll in keeping communities strong by forcing a degree of isolation, this in turn makes the populace much more attuned to a high degree of Social awareness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    - NHS model: I take your point re "excess demand over contribution", though I'm not so sure the problems of the UK NHS are primarily
    due to increased number of immigrants:

    https://www.france24.com/en/20191119...-corbyn-brexit
    There's other factors as well - such as an Aging Population that lives longer, an ever growing list of mental and developmental disorders that fall under the rubric of the NHS, however perhaps the most convincing data point is one that shows the average spend increases per-year for the NHS, there's a steady increase up until around 1998 when the Blair government came into power and heralded the start of the so-called 'mass migration' to the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking01 View Post
    - Whether you think social democracies should put more emphasis on military spending, as opposed to their own internal infrastructural
    investment and social spending.
    Woah, that's a tough question, since there are so many possible answers - again with the Nordic countries, many of them are armed to the teeth (metaphorically) but have had a long tradition of non-interference - with their Armed forces and Military doctrine geared towards defence of their shoreline and in the event of a Russian invasion, engaging in a delaying action - heavy ambushes with quick retreats.

    However there are things to consider such as what Role one should take in the international arena - there's many occasions where Evil has been allowed to flourish thanks to military inaction.

    I guess the ultimate answer it is a Balancing game, where the ground constantly changes. Sometimes you need to invest in the Military to replace aging equipment, sometimes you need to invest elsehwere.
    Physics; Thou art a cruel, heartless Bitch-of-a-Mistress

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    If interested and have time watch and listen to this.

    Glenn Beck Presents: The Democrats’ Hydra -------------------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-vMj-FB88


    "The very essence of the banking industry; to make us all, (whether we be nations or individuals), slaves to debt!" ... is it working for them yet?

    Debt explained: http://www.positivemoney.org/issues/debt/

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    Lightbulb

    The impeachment inquiry is interesting. At the onset a law professor commented the Trump was clearly guilty and there could be no logical defence. So the Republicans kept banging on about the whistle blower although he or she was long since irrelevant.

    Then it was “It’s all hearsay”. Yesterday three witnesses testified who had actually been listening to the call. So much for the “hearsay” defence.

    The next desperate attempt was “There is no quid pro quo”. Today Sondland testifies there was indeed a quid pro quo. So there was bribery which according to the Constitutioni is grounds for removal of a predident.

    Today would be a good day for some Republicans to discover their spine.
    There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldrider View Post
    Glenn Beck Presents: The Democrats’ Hydra -------------------------- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si-vMj-FB88

    The problem for beck is alot of people wont forgive him for his anti Trumper narratives from a few years back so even outright Trumpers are very dismissive of him when he's actually BANG on the money here.





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