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Thread: Death by Cheesecutter, again?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post

    Why are they quoting an Australasian study but filtering out Aussie data?

    Why does the WRB data from Europe indicate a poor enough safety performance that they're removing it wholesale?

    And, yet again: if roadside obstructions are responsible for 260 motorcycle deaths in 12 years then why the fuck are they continuing to install more of it?

    Meh. If you want straight answers don't ask a fucking politician.
    1) Because then it's answering the question asked (regarding NZ accidents) where if they had replied with 'across Australasia...' as a response then they would have been accused of using irrelevant data and not answering the question? In regard to the fatatlity per KM then you'd need to adjust for the conditions as different types of barrier are used in different circumstances, and so there would be bias-wire ropes are generally on roads with less width, and potentially more curvature than some other types of barriers. Also
    2) They aren't. In some countries with very different road conditions (remember, NZ is unique which is why we can rant about tourists, but sadly means we can't then claim to apply selective decisions as being directly applicable.
    3) Because having barriers saves more. The point of that response was to highlight that 200+ riders hit roadside 'features' (trees, signs, etc) where if there had been wire ropes by the side of the road they wouldn't have hit. Sure, a proportion would still have been killed as they hit the wire rope, but not all. What you can't have data on is how many motorcyclists didn't get hit head on by a car / truck / other biker when travelling on a road with a central wire rope.

    And finally, whilst clearly going to get me some not great rep here, the barriers aren't just installed to save motorcyclists. In pretty much every location where the barriers are there are more cars, and often more trucks than motorcyclists. So even if it were to be accepted that the wire ropes were less effective at saving motorcyclists than other barriers, or even no barriers, the ability to install wire rope where no other barrier can be installed, or where the cost differential meant that 3-4 times the distance can be installed for the given budget, then more people are being saved. And even for the majority of people on here, a biased sample of transport users, how many KM per year do people travel on two wheels vs 4 wheels? So overall, the safety benefits for the average motorcyclists from wire ropes exceeds any disbenefit. And I speak as someone that's done 12,000km on 2 wheels in the last 5 months.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan74 View Post
    So even if it were to be accepted that the wire ropes were less effective at saving motorcyclists than other barriers, or even no barriers, the ability to install wire rope where no other barrier can be installed, or where the cost differential meant that 3-4 times the distance can be installed for the given budget, then more people are being saved.
    Put your brain into gear for a moment and ask yourself what would happen if the word "Motorcyclists" above were replaced with "Maori" (or any other racial group).
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by swbarnett View Post
    Put your brain into gear for a moment and ask yourself what would happen if the word "Motorcyclists" above were replaced with "Maori" (or any other racial group).
    If you replaced the word motorcyclist in my post, as you suggest, then I'd be a rambling lunatic making bizarre links between completely irrelevant things to add further emotional fuel in the absence of a logical or reasoned argument.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan74 View Post
    If you replaced the word motorcyclist in my post, as you suggest, then I'd be a rambling lunatic making bizarre links between completely irrelevant things to add further emotional fuel in the absence of a logical or reasoned argument.
    Let me spell out my point. Why is it OK to discriminate against a group of individuals based on their chosen form of transport when it is so obviously not OK to do it based on race?

    I really don't give a flying fuck if WRBs (or any barrier), on balance, saves lives if they can be shown to endanger motorcyclists. I can guarantee you that if they were shown to be perfectly safe for us "whites" but killed Maori they'd all be ripped out before you could say race relations conciliator.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by swbarnett View Post
    chosen
    That, right there, fucks your race analogy.

  6. #81
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    I see the new Transmission Gully highway looks like it is going to have plenty of WRB on it.

    Cheers

    Merv

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madness View Post
    That, right there, fucks your race analogy.
    I may not agree with the race analogy, but I take umbrage at your insinuation there is a choice.
    I tried to quit riding. All that really happened was I spent every spare moment and a few that weren't spare warring with myself over had I made the right decision or should I get another bike.
    It was a hell like no other.
    It is a passion, a religion and a way of life. It is not a choice.

    Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madness View Post
    That, right there, fucks your race analogy.
    Chosen or night. It's still discrimination against a minority.
    "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin (1706-90)

    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending to much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)

    "Motorcycling is not inherently dangerous. It is, however, EXTREMELY unforgiving of inattention, ignorance, incompetence and stupidity!" - Anonymous

    "Live to Ride, Ride to Live"

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
    I may not agree with the race analogy, but I take umbrage at your insinuation there is a choice.
    I tried to quit riding. All that really happened was I spent every spare moment and a few that weren't spare warring with myself over had I made the right decision or should I get another bike.
    It was a hell like no other.
    It is a passion, a religion and a way of life. It is not a choice.

    Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC
    You're just too fucking big to fit in a car

    Although your post was very cute, I disagree. I wake up on a sunny weekend morning. I could jump on the bike, in the car or in my brand spanking new work van, entirely my choice. Some days I feel like being a Mexican but it's yet to happen for some reason.

  10. #85
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    Aren't WRB's installed where motorcyclist would rather not ride? Y'all probably would have a legitimate beef if they were all over your favorite twisty bits. If you're unfortuante enough to come into contact with one on a straight bit of road, it's possibly something more to do with your riding habit.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madness View Post
    You're just too fucking big to fit in a car

    Although your post was very cute, I disagree. I wake up on a sunny weekend morning. I could jump on the bike, in the car or in my brand spanking new work van, entirely my choice. Some days I feel like being a Mexican but it's yet to happen for some reason.
    drink tequila. You can borrow my sombrero.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan74 View Post
    1) Because then it's answering the question asked (regarding NZ accidents) where if they had replied with 'across Australasia...' as a response then they would have been accused of using irrelevant data and not answering the question? In regard to the fatatlity per KM then you'd need to adjust for the conditions as different types of barrier are used in different circumstances, and so there would be bias-wire ropes are generally on roads with less width, and potentially more curvature than some other types of barriers. Also
    2) They aren't. In some countries with very different road conditions (remember, NZ is unique which is why we can rant about tourists, but sadly means we can't then claim to apply selective decisions as being directly applicable.
    3) Because having barriers saves more. The point of that response was to highlight that 200+ riders hit roadside 'features' (trees, signs, etc) where if there had been wire ropes by the side of the road they wouldn't have hit. Sure, a proportion would still have been killed as they hit the wire rope, but not all. What you can't have data on is how many motorcyclists didn't get hit head on by a car / truck / other biker when travelling on a road with a central wire rope.

    And finally, whilst clearly going to get me some not great rep here, the barriers aren't just installed to save motorcyclists. In pretty much every location where the barriers are there are more cars, and often more trucks than motorcyclists. So even if it were to be accepted that the wire ropes were less effective at saving motorcyclists than other barriers, or even no barriers, the ability to install wire rope where no other barrier can be installed, or where the cost differential meant that 3-4 times the distance can be installed for the given budget, then more people are being saved. And even for the majority of people on here, a biased sample of transport users, how many KM per year do people travel on two wheels vs 4 wheels? So overall, the safety benefits for the average motorcyclists from wire ropes exceeds any disbenefit. And I speak as someone that's done 12,000km on 2 wheels in the last 5 months.
    Are you a politician?
    1) Irrelevant, when presenting data you supply the full set, anything less is politics.

    2) They are removing them. And / or spending far more than the original savings the choice of WRB represented in the first place to cover them in plastic panels. And not just in Azerbekstan. In fact the main difference in installation is that here they’re installed on roads without the recommended minimum 3 meter offset distance from the lane. So yes, in that regard NZ is unique, we’re installing them incorrectly in the interest of cost. And not very much cost at that.

    3) I’ve never said we shouldn’t have barriers. Simply that WRB isn’t as safe for riders as the similarly priced and performing concrete barriers. And not even NZTA are stupid enough to suggest that riders benefit from WRB, (including the posts that support them) on the roadside because they then don’t hit other posts further away.

    That being the case why aren’t we using bike friendly barriers AND ripping out all of the spurious roadside posts, barriers and trees?

    You could use the budget for WRB to pay for the concrete barriers and the savings from not killing "200+", (and in fact 260) bike riders to pay for removing dangerous roadside posts and trees.

    And before another fuckwit suggests we all just ride better I'll point out that there's two aspects to risk: frequency and consequence. Given enough miles the best rider in the world will eventually make a mistake. And when he does the WRB won't give a fuck how good he was.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by swbarnett View Post
    Put your brain into gear for a moment and ask yourself what would happen if the word "Motorcyclists" above were replaced with "Maori" (or any other racial group).

    Motorcyclists CHOOSE to be motorcyclists...
    Winding up drongos, foil hat wearers and over sensitive KBers for over 14,000 posts...........
    " Life is not a rehearsal, it's as happy or miserable as you want to make it"

  14. #89
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    I asked the Roads Board or something why WRBs had been placed between the straight through Maunganui Rd lane and the lane coming down from the Hewletts Rd flyover if you're heading south - just south of the BP. They said they needed to install a barrier there because SUV drivers of a certain gender were suddenly changing lanes once they came off the flyover or came level with the outside lane, this endangering traffic in the other lane. I suggested they use those bendy wands, they said they had and the SUV drivers of a certain gender were just driving through them and the problem of sudden incursion into the other lane still existed when those bendy wands were used. Because different lane barriers need a specified separation from traffic they had to use the physical WRBs which have the lowest specified clearance.

    So, despite being aware of the shortcomings of the WRB, it was the best solution to a problem which included motorbike riders being sideswiped by cars changing lanes without looking. Haven't heard of any motorbike injuries or deaths there at that site, but I bet there have been some motorists and bike riders saved from a side on because thee barriers are there.

    Now I think WRBs are used in some senseless places, but that's one where WRBs were used with bike rider's protection in mind.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by scumdog View Post
    Motorcyclists CHOOSE to be motorcyclists...
    True! - and motorcyclists generally choose to avoid tangling with WRB's.

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