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Thread: Winter Layup - 1995 Ducati 900 Supersport

  1. #151
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    The pump guy who did one of the chiller pumps at work learned what C3 meant this week when I told him the pump body should not be 50 degrees only 20. The OEM bearings were 3 weeks back order so he fitted normal bearings..... if a jobs worth doing once its worth doing twice...
    Airhead BMW's use C3's in the gearbox otherwise they can get very tight.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  2. #152
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    The pump guy who did one of the chiller pumps at work learned what C3 meant this week when I told him the pump body should not be 50 degrees only 20. The OEM bearings were 3 weeks back order so he fitted normal bearings..... if a jobs worth doing once its worth doing twice...
    Airhead BMW's use C3's in the gearbox otherwise they can get very tight.
    Interesting - news to me, learn something new every day. This might explain the apparent loose clearance in the bearings in the spur gears. They didn't look worn so I'd decided to leave them, reassuring to hear that they're supposed to be reasonably loose anyway.

    Ocean1's tip of using a razor to scrape the gunk off worked:
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  3. #153
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    I've worked out a way to pull the last pair of bearings, the tricky ones with no center roller or anything to grip to.

    First, pop the rollers out of the cage with something slender like a knife blade. Insert blade between roller cage and outside race, then go around the perimeter. The cage is plastic and flexes quite easily, the rollers pop out without any fuss.

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    The outer race is just a bit too big for my slide hammer collets, which stop at 30mm. I checked but there doesn't seem to be a 32mm available, at least without dropping another $300 on another puller tool. It's do-able with some kind of internal spacer for the puller collet to slot into, though. Lathe something up perhaps, then I had an idea and I took some measurements. It turns out that one of the bearings pulled earlier, the smaller cylindrical roller, has an OD exactly that of this bearing race's ID.

    If I cut this down, maybe this'd make the adaptor. First thing was that it was too long (11mm, while the rollers are 7mm), and the puller's collets wouldn't go into it or lock. There are internal grooves which the puller collet's end tapers might slot into, and the inner diameter might match up. So I started by cutting the flange off one end. It's hardened steel, so a grinding cut-off wheel has to be used. This had to be done square, since this cut face will be doing the pulling.

    A trick I've used before is to have the object spinning in a lathe chuck and then feed the cutoff wheel in, like a lathe tool. Don't have a lathe at home... do have the old, stuffed bearings. One of the old crankshaft bearings made a nice housing for the bearing shell. Some masking tape on the inner diameter held the two together, then it was cutoff wheel time, while allowing it to rotate slowly. Took about twenty minutes, I couldn't press too hard and there was a fair amount of steel to go through.

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    Then I needed chamfers on the cut face, so it was switch to a flap wheel and re-mount the remainder of the shell onto another old bearing, face to face with double-sided tape.

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    A chamfer is needed to feed the collet in, the end of the thing is flared very slightly. The outer face also wanted tidying up a little too.

  4. #154
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    Next step - take the nice new ring and test it for fit on the 30 mm collet.

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    Success. It fit first time, no probs.

    Then I had to get it into the bearing shell's roller groove, so that means splitting it up to fit in piece by piece. Cutoff wheel again, the small piece was discarded:

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    Test fit:

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    So now I only have to heat the casings and use the slide hammer again.

  5. #155
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    Long post, be warned

    Pulling the last two bearing shells worked, no probs.

    My camera has failed - Canon 30D, Err Cf - so I lost the pictures. I think it's just the card so shouldn't be too much of an issue to get it going again. It'll be cellphone snaps in the meantime.

    Some bits and bobs from the last few days:

    I've decided against bead / soda blast and repaint for the engine casings. I was going to buy the gear since I'll be using it again. After looking properly at what's involved, it's waiting on getting a much bigger garage than the one I have now.

    The reasons are cost, space, humidity, and heat. Once I buy the cabinet, hopper, dust collector, and compressor, I don't have space to park the car. Humidity in an uncontrolled, cold, damp garage is going to cause a lot of problems with sticking blast media and jams. Paint is going to be tricky to dry and cure properly at the moment as well, without a bake oven. So (ideally) I'll be in a better situation at the next major service and I can make a different call then.

    The frame - I've been checking the forums for solutions concerning the cracking. It's hit a lot of people and it seems like these bikes have a lifetime of about 50,000 kms or so before it happens. Ducati never actually solved the issue, they just replaced frames under warranty for a while. Not the best really.

    Nichols offer a pair of plates which can be welded in:

    http://nicholssportbikes.com/product...MEGUSSETS.html

    $150 US, though... ouch. The bigger plate is to be welded in on the bottom triangle, surprisingly. Both plates go in with the welds on the neutral axis of the tubes, i.e. top or bottom surfaces.

    There was a clamp-type brace offered:

    http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-super...ternative.html

    It's not highly rated. To get this to work it has to grip the frame tubes with zero flex or give, it has to be like a machinist's clamp, and it just isn't built that precisely. It's not in the right place on the frame to close the triangle anyway.

    I tried mocking up what the frame would be like with a decent top gusset plate and promptly found that no matter how much clearance I leave, the airbox will foul on something when trying to remove it to get at the carburettors. This'd make servicing the carbs into a lift-frame-off-engine job. Nope, not keen.

    Then I tried mocking up a cross tube, to close the top triangle completely. It's perfect for the frame, but a nightmare for the airbox. Pod filters are possible - lose HP, lose torque, loads of induction noise, have to rejet carbs, but it's possible. I'd really rather keep the airbox.

    A member on Ducati.ms described (didn't picture) a solution where he gusseted around the outside of the triangle and headstock, on both upper and lower triangles, together with the more usual internal gussets. It'll be ugly as sin but it'll be inside the fairing, mostly. This would let me keep the stock airbox and battery mount (so would the Nichols plates, which are looking better and better the more I think about them), which brings me to the next stage.

    The airbox redesign is proving tricky. I'd spent some more time playing with the ram air idea, mocking up intake paths with bits of cardboard. At the moment the major problem is actually constructing the thing, but arranging a half-decent intake isn't trivial either.
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    Last edited by OddDuck; 27th June 2016 at 07:20. Reason: Airbox notes at end

  6. #156
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    Further thoughts about the airbox

    I've been taking a bit of time over the last few days to see how Japanese sportbikes utilise ram air and what the ins and outs of their designs are.

    The usual story is an intake or intakes up front, right at the nose of the bike, with ram tubes (possibly as many as 4) curving back to the front lower part of the airbox. At this point the airflow takes a 90 degree turn upward, passes through the air filter, and then enters the resonant part of the airbox. Airflow then turns 90 degrees again, passes horizontally under the lid, before entering the large volume of the intake snorkel area. Sometimes there is a baffle wall and a resonance tube, sometimes not. The 90 degree turns allow easy servicing of the air filter, since it's mounted flat, and also take ingested material such as stones out of the airflow by dropout before the filter.

    Construction is by injection-moulded plastic, usually ABS, with rubber gaskets where needed. Ram air requires attention to sealing the system throughout. There's also a secondary system of tubing running to carburettor float bowls, with a great deal of care being applied in making sure that the float bowls are pressurised to match the intakes. Tank vents and crankcase pressure relief valves are connected as well.

    Ducati's OEM airbox system is far simpler and a lot less vulnerable to an air leak, but it has a couple of serious design flaws. The first is the number of twists and turns that inlet air has to make as it enters the system. The intake is positioned not just underneath the fuel tank, but nestled at the heart of a cavity in the underside. The bike breathes through the gap between tank and airbox, which is roughly 20 mm or less on all four sides and requires two 90 degree turns in the airflow.

    The second design flaw is that the bike doesn't have a clearly defined inlet zone. While rolling, there's enough airflow through the fairing / undertank area that inlet can be assumed to be ambient air. At standstill or rolling slow, the bike will start to draw air from all sides of the airbox (as shown by the dirt on the tank underside), including the rear. It'll pull hot air from the engine's cooling fins, particularly the vertical cylinder.

    This means that inlet air temperature can vary. I don't have measurements, but this effect coupled with inlet stub pipes getting hot might explain the bike's notoriously bad behaviour in traffic situations. Carburetors can be set up perfectly for one set of inlet conditions. If the inlet conditions (such as air pressure, humidity, temperature etc) are changing, then problems follow.

    The last item that's been bothering me is the unequal induction timing. A 90 degree V-twin will snort air at 270 - 450 degree intervals, and in this design, the carburetor intakes are right next to each other. One of them will be robbing the other of air. This effect will depend on RPM, airflow and resonance, so it might swap between intakes. This might also cause problems with correct AF ratios, but I can't be sure of that yet.

    So far so good, to my mind there's a pretty good case for having a go at building my own. The problem is the actual construction. The bike fairings limit my options for placing intakes. The cross bracing in the frame make it very difficult to route an intake into the front of the airbox area, although sides and underside are open. I don't have the means to mould plastic - and it's crazy making a cored mould for a one-off like this anyway. Vacuum forming and welding (via 80-watt soldering iron) might be possible, though. Sketch time, I need to get basic concepts right before proceeding further on the bench.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    True - don't have one though. Also don't have space to put one, I'm doing everything in a single car garage, with the car going back in every night. Power is via an extension cord from the flat. It's pretty basic.

    One of the reasons I'm trying to document all the tips and tricks (and traps) is to help others, there's quite a few of us out there in a similar situation and I want to give something back. This isn't a go at you, it's just that most of us out there have access to an oven, but getting an immersion bath sorted out would just be too much.
    your set up same as mine except no room for the car full of bikes and i mean full. and crap junk.

    I am in the process of taking out my cbr 900rr engine to spilt the cases and replace a gearbox bearing or bearings.

    any tips ideas . i was going take them to engine recon place just down the road to get them remove a bearings .

    Do i go with honda parts or go to bearing place . so far had no luck with honda bearings go there and always say they odd size .

    I seen one bearing on ebay but for 93 blade not mine sc 33

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by actungbaby View Post
    your set up same as mine except no room for the car full of bikes and i mean full. and crap junk.

    I am in the process of taking out my cbr 900rr engine to spilt the cases and replace a gearbox bearing or bearings.

    any tips ideas . i was going take them to engine recon place just down the road to get them remove a bearings .

    Do i go with honda parts or go to bearing place . so far had no luck with honda bearings go there and always say they odd size .

    I seen one bearing on ebay but for 93 blade not mine sc 33
    OK, first, if you're going to do it yourself - clean up, get some space to work. I mean that, clutter makes everything hard or impossible.

    Second, I spent roughly $500 on tools to do this. I'm going to be doing this stuff again so that's fine, just be aware that the puller and driver sets aren't cheap.

    Bearings: I've been using the SKF distributor and they're pretty good at matching sizes up with the vernier calipers, you just have to get the bearings out in the first place. That said, sometimes manufacturers use non-standard sizes. That might be engineering constraints or it might be forcing customers to pay up for brandname parts. If that happens then that's it, it's pay the dealer, because nobody else will have that bearing.

    I would trust unique part numbers for the bearing over model name and year - see if you can get exploded parts diagrams (some online parts shops have them as well), or check the forums devoted to that particular bike.

  9. #159
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    Re the airbox, moulds and so on. Could you make a pattern from polystyrene? Doesn't matter how complex the shape as you can lay up glassfibre over the top, then pour in solvent to dissolve the polystyrene from the inside. Once you get the details worked out, go all out and make it from carbon fibre.
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    Re the airbox, moulds and so on. Could you make a pattern from polystyrene? Doesn't matter how complex the shape as you can lay up glassfibre over the top, then pour in solvent to dissolve the polystyrene from the inside. Once you get the details worked out, go all out and make it from carbon fibre.
    That'd solve a lot of problems with sealing seam lines. In fact that'd solve a lot of problems full stop. I hadn't heard of the dissolving polystyrene trick before, what solvent is used?

    I've been spending most of the week looking at the possibilities for constructing the ram air intakes and the airbox itself - off the shelf parts availability, vacuum forming, air hose types and availability. The short answer is that it's not easy, I've ended up overwhelmed by detail.

    The hosing itself (if using hose for ram air / cold air intake) is an issue. I've been doing some mocking up and measurements with the frame, triple tree, front subframe, nose fairing and side fairing on the bench. It turns out that there are a lot of pinch points, places where a round hose would be quite limited by available clearance. I'd also prefer a smooth-surfaced hose instead of the usual flex ribbed stuff.

    I did find these guys:

    http://nostalgicac.com/duct-hose-vents.html

    They do an oval pipe in ABS plastic, which looks very promising in terms of using a heatgun and bending / expanding. They also do ABS flange ends for 2", 2.5", and 3" round hose. Don't yet know if they ship internationally though.

    I also found these guys, local supply:

    http://www.hoseshop.co.nz/newsite/our-products

    The site doesn't quote pricing, but they do have hosing which would actually do what I want, namely industrial reinforced rubber. Almost all the hosing available commonly available in NZ is for swimming pools, plumbing, drainage, vacuum cleaners etc, and it's made of PVC or similar light-service plastic. It's simply not up to the vibration, heat, oil and petrol (and fumes), or the UV.

    I'm keen on the flexible hose simply because it's easier to install. Some rigid piping is actually best, it's what the current manufacturer standard used is, but so far the only off-shelf stuff that has a chance of working would be the oval ABS aircon piping.

    Pete's trick with the foam and fibre would also work, I could carve up polystyrene until I have something that fits, then build up material over that. In fact the more I think about it the better it looks, since a lot of fittings get deleted and it's possible to easily do curves. Have to look into this.

    One of the things about building new stuff is that you have to spend a lot of time scouting around for techniques, materials, what can be bought etc... there are dead ends and wasted time, it's just part of the process. You spend a lot of time finding out ways that it can't be done. It's still progress, it just might not feel like it sometimes.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    That'd solve a lot of problems with sealing seam lines. In fact that'd solve a lot of problems full stop. I hadn't heard of the dissolving polystyrene trick before, what solvent is used?.
    Not to gizump Pete, but I've used acetone before, works well.

    Another trick I've tried for a project I never completed is using "space invader". By making a bladder/sock in the area you want to copy/fill, making packing pieces to control clearance and then squirting space invader into the bladder/sock. Took three goes before I worked out how much to squirt in and size and location of vent holes, but it worked well eventually.

    If you can't get the polystyrene out, (or in) in one piece you're not going to get the eventual laid up piece in either, so you may have to do it in 2-3 pieces and make provision to rivet/screw them together in place.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  12. #162
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    OK, first, if you're going to do it yourself - clean up, get some space to work. I mean that, clutter makes everything hard or impossible.

    Second, I spent roughly $500 on tools to do this. I'm going to be doing this stuff again so that's fine, just be aware that the puller and driver sets aren't cheap.

    Bearings: I've been using the SKF distributor and they're pretty good at matching sizes up with the vernier calipers, you just have to get the bearings out in the first place. That said, sometimes manufacturers use non-standard sizes. That might be engineering constraints or it might be forcing customers to pay up for brandname parts. If that happens then that's it, it's pay the dealer, because nobody else will have that bearing.

    I would trust unique part numbers for the bearing over model name and year - see if you can get exploded parts diagrams (some online parts shops have them as well), or check the forums devoted to that particular bike.
    Thanks mate got the engine droped out today yeah am bad for clutter i only have basic socket set so far so good.
    I notiched bit oil weeping from the head gasket , i surpose be dum not to replace this and get the bores checked. new rings

    at the minium is this good idea the bores are plated the engine ran well just few noises from the gearbox.
    wasint prepared to sell a bike in that unknow condtion . but i keep for a year or so know.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by actungbaby View Post
    Thanks mate got the engine droped out today yeah am bad for clutter i only have basic socket set so far so good.
    I notiched bit oil weeping from the head gasket , i surpose be dum not to replace this and get the bores checked. new rings

    at the minium is this good idea the bores are plated the engine ran well just few noises from the gearbox.
    wasint prepared to sell a bike in that unknow condtion . but i keep for a year or so know.
    Google and see if you can download the workshop manual - there are a few PDFs for bikes floating around these days. It'll have checks and measurements, use them... a lot of this stuff is too fine to trust to feel and guesswork.

    Before anything is done, shop around and make sure you've got a source of spares - and that they've got what you're likely to order. Nothing like taking it to bits and then finding that you can't get parts.

    The rings: usually if you're going to pull heads and blocks, it's silly not to change the piston rings while you're at it.

    Head gasket: I'm not sure on re-surfacing, the only bike I ever did a head gasket on didn't need it, but check condition of your cylinder head bolts and make sure they run smooth in their threads. If they're corroded or gunked up, it'll be impossible to torque them up correctly.

    Tools: get a feeler gauge and a torque wrench if you haven't already. You'll want other tools as you go but those are the two main ones. Check the workshop manual for specific tools, they're a PITA but if you need 'em you need 'em.

  14. #164
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    Quick go at my preferred frame reinforcement, tube across top frame rails to close the front top triangle.

    Prep before welding: cutting to length, fishmouthing, fitting. Not much to say here except it'd be a hell of a lot easier with a vertical milling machine and a 25mm cutter. Filing and fitting is what you do when you've got a bench vice and loads of time. Nearly got there, about another hour should get it into place for welding.
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  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    Google and see if you can download the workshop manual - there are a few PDFs for bikes floating around these days. It'll have checks and measurements, use them... a lot of this stuff is too fine to trust to feel and guesswork.

    Before anything is done, shop around and make sure you've got a source of spares - and that they've got what you're likely to order. Nothing like taking it to bits and then finding that you can't get parts.

    The rings: usually if you're going to pull heads and blocks, it's silly not to change the piston rings while you're at it.

    Head gasket: I'm not sure on re-surfacing, the only bike I ever did a head gasket on didn't need it, but check condition of your cylinder head bolts and make sure they run smooth in their threads. If they're corroded or gunked up, it'll be impossible to torque them up correctly.

    Tools: get a feeler gauge and a torque wrench if you haven't already. You'll want other tools as you go but those are the two main ones. Check the workshop manual for specific tools, they're a PITA but if you need 'em you need 'em.
    thanks again mate i got a haynes manuall with the bike yes well i agree the things out the frame , i do the gearbox have look over it

    see whats needs doing shift forks drum etc wasint shifting bad . then save up for the pistons and rings . i get the torque wrench

    and need another set feller guages

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