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Thread: NOT GOOD, Worst deaths in 19 years

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

    I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
    I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
    I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
    I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
    I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
    I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...

    Did they mention all that on the special course? BTW I'm not dissing training, just its not a cure all and it barely scratches the surface of driving intel that professionals build up due to high mileage.
    Most training is going to be dumbed down to be easily digested in a short weekend session and I object to forcing/coercing people it doing it then endangering themselves with a dose of smugness. Yes smugness the next dangerous thing after recklessness...

    BTW that being out wide on the corner thing is horseshit except maybe at low speeds. I'd love to see a photograph with the maths and trigonometry proving that a significant safety margin is gained. The ONLY time its a tangible benefit is PERHAPS for police in hgihspeed pursuits where they have a legal reason to use the wrong side of the road to read ahead.
    For average joe riding in a LEGAL manner on a public road being another 1.5m to the right on a left hand bend isn't going to give you diddly squat extra vision.
    The bigger hazard is colliding with an oncoming vehicle cutting the centreline, why be closer to that hazard when you can eliminate the slow tractor hazard by driving in accordance with the road code to start with.
    If you are driving at such a speed to stop withen the vsible distance on a laned road or half that distance on unlaned road then you should NEVER asre end a tractor or even have the need to 'see' further around a blind corner.
    A blind corner is only one you have entered TOO FAST, so its utter horsehit for professional trainers to be peddling a solution to a situation you should not be in to start with.

    Someone PLKEASE p[rove me wrong with photographic and mathmatecal evidence on this please....
    You have jumped to the wrong end of the stick.

    All of what you have mentioned is part of forward observation. As for the DD course, I know it well as my Dad ran courses on it up here. I heard the whole bloody thing every time we went for a drive.

    Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by R650R View Post
    Well I'm about 6 steps ahead of what their 'teaching' you on that training course due to real world life experience.

    I'm smelling the diesel fumes from its exhaust.
    I'm seeing the fresh tyre tracks fromn the driveway it pulled out of.
    I'm noting the shit dropping on the road from its underbelly, clippings, mud clumps etc.
    I'm noting the oncoming vehicles correcting their path after pulling left to give the wide tractor more room.
    I'm noting the vehicles ahead changing their driving pattern, braking routine... they've seen something im going to see shortly....
    I'm noting the leaves falling in the air that have been ruffled from the trees by a large or high vehicle ahead...

    Did they mention all that on the special course? BTW I'm not dissing training, just its not a cure all and it barely scratches the surface of driving intel that professionals build up due to high mileage.
    Most training is going to be dumbed down to be easily digested in a short weekend session and I object to forcing/coercing people it doing it then endangering themselves with a dose of smugness. Yes smugness the next dangerous thing after recklessness...

    BTW that being out wide on the corner thing is horseshit except maybe at low speeds. I'd love to see a photograph with the maths and trigonometry proving that a significant safety margin is gained. The ONLY time its a tangible benefit is PERHAPS for police in hgihspeed pursuits where they have a legal reason to use the wrong side of the road to read ahead.
    For average joe riding in a LEGAL manner on a public road being another 1.5m to the right on a left hand bend isn't going to give you diddly squat extra vision.
    The bigger hazard is colliding with an oncoming vehicle cutting the centreline, why be closer to that hazard when you can eliminate the slow tractor hazard by driving in accordance with the road code to start with.
    If you are driving at such a speed to stop withen the vsible distance on a laned road or half that distance on unlaned road then you should NEVER asre end a tractor or even have the need to 'see' further around a blind corner.
    A blind corner is only one you have entered TOO FAST, so its utter horsehit for professional trainers to be peddling a solution to a situation you should not be in to start with.

    Someone PLKEASE p[rove me wrong with photographic and mathmatecal evidence on this please....
    I don't know about photos and maths but I call horseshit on your horseshit. Taking a wide line is only part of the story. Taking a wide line is not always the best line for a particular corner. Safety is your top priority, then stability of the bike, then visibility (what YOU can see) If taking the wider line to get a better view compromises your safety then its the wrong line.
    The ride forever courses use the Roadcraft system as their basis. In that respect you are absolutely correct that a single day or weekend of training will not a complete rider make and there has to be some variation as to how the content is pitched depending on the riders who turn up on the day. That is simply good teaching practice. So, accepting Ride Forever is not the complete story, it is however a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Otherwise the approach is effectively, "lets not teach ANYTHING unless we can do it all"
    Back to Roadcraft, that takes months of practice and mentoring to get right, in some cases years. Its also not an end in and of itself, riding to Roadcraft standard is accepted by those who practice it as a lifelong commitment to learning and improving.
    The very first part of the system of Roadcraft involves taking note of just the very things you listed as a series of observations, its called INFORMATION, more simply put, you keep your eyes, ears and nose open and pay attention to what is going on around you, with particular focus on what is ahead, as far ahead as you can see. (lack of forward observation is probably the most significant missing piece in rider/driver skills/practices)
    Taking in information will then determine your POSITION. So sometimes you will shift your line to get a better view, hence the wide lines you often see discussed. In selecting the position you also have to then select an appropriate SPEED, a GEAR to control that speed before you finally ACCELERATE away.
    lets talk about that position thing for a second, leaving visibility aside. If you position yourself on a wider line for a corner, chances are your entry speed will be slower than if you are closer to the centre line. That means you will be better able to respond to what you do not yet see. It also means that you have the maximum amount of room to lean the bike and carry your entry speed to the apex before accelerating away (this is what bikes do best isn't it?) If you are for example going through a right hand corner and find you need to lean more to take a tightening arc that isn't much fun if your head is hanging over the centre line, taking the wider line allows you to lean more without that happening.
    On the left hand bends coming wider means to enter you MUST be going slower, not going in hot and then drifting because you are too fast. If you have to lean more then you do so and that leaning takes you away from oncoming traffic. Again you do not apex too early and instead get to power away from the corner at the most effective point.
    Its not racing lines but we aren't on the track are we?
    Of course all of this is moot if there are corrugations on the bend, tar bleeds, debris/gravel/shit. Then you select a line to avoid those (safety first remember?) The point is Ride Forever is based on Roadcraft which is a system, the system is flexible enough to cover all scenarios. You cycle through the stages of the system, if something changes (new information) then you reset and begin again. Like anything skillwise that takes practice and lots of it. It also helps if you get feedback on what is working and what isn't.
    Honestly you sound like you take being on the road seriously, you are a professional, that makes sense. Your headspace is all about being up to the task. Great! Roadcraft recognises that is appropriate. The system has a manual, the first chapter is all about the psychology of riding/driving.
    If the thought of being taught how to suck eggs gives you shivers down your spine, then get in touch with IAM ask for an assessment ride and go show the observer what you can do. I am very confident the experience will be beneficial to you no matter what you decide to do after that.
    I could give you plenty of examples of how the system and applying it properly has saved my bacon in any number of potential "oh fuck" moments. IN actual fact I would say riding using the roadcraft system actually significantly reduces the number of those moments. Its not the system that falls over, rather my application of it. There are plenty on this forum with way more knowledge of Roadcraft than me who could do likewise. Bother that, I would suggest go check it out for yourself.
    Last edited by Ulsterkiwi; 30th December 2016 at 16:21. Reason: spelling errors
    Life is not measured by how many breaths you take, but how many times you have your breath taken away

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    I don't know about photos and maths but I call horseshit on your horseshit. Taking a wide line is only part of the story. Taking a wide line is not always the best line for a particular corner. Safety is your top priority, then stability of the bike, then visibility (what YOU can see) If taking the wider line to get a better view compromises your safety then its the wrong line.
    The ride forever courses use the Roadcraft system as their basis. In that respect you are absolutely correct that a single day or weekend of training will not a complete rider make and there has to be some variation as to how the content is pitched depending on the riders who turn up on the day. That is simply good teaching practice. So, accepting Ride Forever is not the complete story, it is however a hell of a lot better than nothing at all. Otherwise the approach is effectively, "lets not teach ANYTHING unless we can do it all"
    Back to Roadcraft, that takes months of practice and mentoring to get right, in some cases years. Its also not an end in and of itself, riding to Roadcraft standard is accepted by those who practice it as a lifelong commitment to learning and improving.
    The very first part of the system of Roadcraft involves taking note of just the very things you listed as a series of observations, its called INFORMATION, more simply put, you keep your eyes, ears and nose open and pay attention to what is going on around you, with particular focus on what is ahead, as far ahead as you can see. (lack of forward observation is probably the most significant missing piece in rider/driver skills/practices)
    Taking in information will then determine your POSITION. So sometimes you will shift your line to get a better view, hence the wide lines you often see discussed. In selecting the position you also have to then select an appropriate SPEED, a GEAR to control that speed before you finally ACCELERATE away.
    lets talk about that position thing for a second, leaving visibility aside. If you position yourself on a wider line for a corner, chances are your entry speed will be slower than if you are closer to the centre line. That means you will be better able to respond to what you do not yet see. It also means that you have the maximum amount of room to lean the bike and carry your entry speed to the apex before accelerating away (this is what bikes do best isn't it?) If you are for example going through a right hand corner and find you need to lean more to take a tightening arc that isn't much fun if your head is hanging over the centre line, taking the wider line allows you to lean more without that happening.
    On the left hand bends coming wider means to enter you MUST be going slower, not going in hot and then drifting because you are too fast. If you have to lean more then you do so and that leaning takes you away from oncoming traffic. Again you do not apex too early and instead get to power away from the corner at the most effective point.
    Its not racing lines but we aren't on the track are we?
    Of course all of this is moot if there are corrugations on the bend, tar bleeds, debris/gravel/shit. Then you select a line to avoid those (safety first remember?) The point is Ride Forever is based on Roadcraft which is a system, the system is flexible enough to cover all scenarios. You cycle through the stages of the system, if something changes (new information) then you reset and begin again. Like anything skillwise that takes practice and lots of it. It also helps if you get feedback on what is working and what isn't.
    Honestly you sound like you take being on the road seriously, you are a professional, that makes sense. Your headspace is all about being up to the task. Great! Roadcraft recognises that is appropriate. The system has a manual, the first chapter is all about the psychology of riding/driving.
    If the thought of being taught how to suck eggs gives you shivers down your spine, then get in touch with IAM ask for an assessment ride and go show the observer what you can do. I am very confident the experience will be beneficial to you no matter what you decide to do after that.
    I could give you plenty of examples of how the system and applying it properly has saved my bacon in any number of potential "oh fuck" moments. IN actual fact I would say riding using the roadcraft system actually significantly reduces the number of those moments. Its not the system that falls over, rather my application of it. There are plenty on this forum with way more knowledge of Roadcraft than me who could do likewise. Bother that, I would suggest go check it out for yourself.
    What he said.

    Im on an unstable connection so hard to type forever.

    I'm always looking out for diesel, way to many truckies overfill and don't put the caps back on properly.

    Sent from my GT-I9300T using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    Considering you are only one reader of many hundreds/thousands who do read my posts I am not going change what topics I post on just because one individual disagrees with my thinking. The fact you did take me off ignore must mean you agreed with me for a time though. If we all agreed with one another dont you think the forum would get real boring?
    Please take it as a given that I object to something or all of every one of your posts that I have read and not replied to.
    I used to reply believing you were in need of help, even feeling bad when others ganged up on you.
    I have however come to the conclusion that either:
    A) you are a troll.
    B) you are so stubborn good advice will fall on deaf ears (or eyes) if you actually bother to read anyone else's posts at all.
    C) you are so conceited as to believe that everyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.
    D) all of the above.

    As such I no longer waste the electrons on you.

    One last try... If you believe that nothing has changed, no new techniques developed, no new understanding of physics has occurred in my lifetime (your earlier claim iirc was that you have not learned anything new since before I was born 43 years ago) please try to prove me wrong.
    Go to the Ride Forever courses with an open mind. Or are you scared you will learn something?

    Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Dog View Post
    Or are you scared you will learn something?

    Sent from Tapatalk. DYAC

    ...the fear of learning is strong in this subject, methinks...

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulsterkiwi View Post
    I really do not mean to completely diss the perspective you have expressed here but its a good demonstration of how our misinformed opinions are directing many of our attitudes. The figures say that there are more motorcycles on the road than ever. Your opinion is there are fewer, it is based, by your explanation, on your "being on the roads" and presumably what you see, that is never the whole story is it?
    The figures also show that the rate of crashes when compared to the number of riders on the road is decreasing. .

    .
    No offense taken. I've not bothered to look up any statistics so if you say there are more riders on our roads, I say that's good news. I was only voicing my opinion from personal observation over 42 years of continuous riding. I just don't see as many riders out and about these days. 5, 10 and 15 + years ago on any weekend at Martinborough you would see tons of bikes lined up outside every café. Man the Flying Fish was a fight to find a parking space. Common to have to park around the corner, on the footpath. Now..if you see 2 or 3 bikes at any one Café you get excited by the large gathering. The big herds must have migrated north?
    Happiness is a means of travel, not a destination

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by MD View Post
    No offense taken. I've not bothered to look up any statistics so if you say there are more riders on our roads, I say that's good news. I was only voicing my opinion from personal observation over 42 years of continuous riding. I just don't see as many riders out and about these days. 5, 10 and 15 + years ago on any weekend at Martinborough you would see tons of bikes lined up outside every café. Man the Flying Fish was a fight to find a parking space. Common to have to park around the corner, on the footpath. Now..if you see 2 or 3 bikes at any one Café you get excited by the large gathering. The big herds must have migrated north?
    People are using them as transport once more.Weekend rides have died a death due to the people who organised them dying a death. I was only moaning to a workmate last week that I have no one to ride with any more. They've either given up, died, or ride way faster than I'm comfortable doing.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    People are using them as transport once more.Weekend rides have died a death due to the people who organised them dying a death. I was only moaning to a workmate last week that I have no one to ride with any more. They've either given up, died, or ride way faster than I'm comfortable doing.
    I could ride all weekend on the rides that pop up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    I could ride all weekend on the rides that pop up.
    I'm desperately pleased for you. You either didn't read what I wrote or are doing your usual lousy attempt at fishing for a response.

    If you aren't trolling please direct me to all the Wellington/Wairarapa/Manawatu rides that are being organised for normal people who just want to go for a ride.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by James Deuce View Post
    I'm desperately pleased for you. You either didn't read what I wrote or are doing your usual lousy attempt at fishing for a response.

    If you aren't trolling please direct me to all the Wellington/Wairarapa/Manawatu rides that are being organised for normal people who just want to go for a ride.
    Try Tinder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Try Tinder.
    They don't like ugly, late middle aged people. The kids on it are so young it borders on paedolphilia.
    If a man is alone in the woods and there isn't a woke Hollywood around to call him racist, is he still white?



  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    Maybe a lot of guys have given up group riding because of the associated pressure to "keep up"
    No, they just don't want to ride with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    Where did I ever say I wanted to join a group ride?
    You cannot keep up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    The reason why I am not interested in going to riding school is because all the bad crashes I have been in casued by others or dogs have happened too fast to brake or swerve.
    So ergo you have nothing to learn?

    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    The riding school tutors assume there is always time to brake or swerve when others screw up and I am just saying they are wrong.
    And you should always assume there is. With that mindset you are more likely to look for 'escape paths' rather than freeze up. And the only way to do that is too assume it every time. Look at it as 'positive thinking' if you will, sure it might not work every time but negative thinking will almost guarantee it never works.

    No one is naive enough to think that every accident is completely avoidable, but the attitude and belief that they are will only increase your chances of improving your safety.

  15. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    Losing the bike on gravel beats having a head on would you not agree.
    I absolutely would not agree. I had to take evasive action to avoid a car traveling too quick and taking up most of the gravel road I was enjoying on Boxing day. A fat 230kg+ bike on T30 sport touring tires may not seem ideal to avoid a sideways Nissan coming out of a corner at you on loose gravel, but it was my ride for the day.

    It was a non event, I locked the rear briefly, which was helpful, slowed, evaded, and carried on my merry way, probably far less rattled than the driver judging by his expression.

    How, you may ask, did I manage to achieve this incredible feat? And you should be asking if you habitually take evasive action for a hazard which is not actually there.

    I will tell you, in confidence. An open mind and a large appetite for improving my knowledge and ability. Oh, and lots of learning and practice. Selfish I know, all about me.

    You have mentioned fear a few times in this thread. It's a strange emotion, very powerful, but it is based on events that have not yet happened.
    Be a bit more optimistic for 2017.
    Last edited by george formby; 30th December 2016 at 19:03. Reason: Learning is cooler than training, apparently.
    Manopausal.

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