Support for our front line Ambo's.

[Ocean1]

I am not concerned with the cost of training a doctor.

I am more concerned with house surgeons and registrars working ridiculous hours. If I am admitted to A&E, I'd much rather have a registrar who has done 4 hours of their shift examining me than one who has do 8+ hours.

In most cases the fact that they're "on duty" doesn't have much to do with whether they're "working" or not.

And in fact the DHBs are absolutely comfortable with reduced hrs, even though they've have to build more baby doc's into the system. But the union wants the same roster with paid days off inserted. Nobody ever paid me for my weekends. And nobody sure as fuck ever paid me over a million dollars over and above my hourly rate for the privilege of training me.

I suggest that you believe fuck all you hear from the union over the next few weeks industrial action.

[Moi]

In most cases the fact that they're "on duty" doesn't have much to do with whether they're "working" or not.

The same could be said about firemen and ambulance staff [though I somehow doubt it].

However, I doubt if many or any registrars sit around drinking coffee and eating chocolate biscuits during their shift. Perhaps there might be A&E staff on KB who are willing to share their experience of work - better work stories?

And in fact the DHBs are absolutely comfortable with reduced hrs, even though they've have to build more baby doc's into the system. But the union wants the same roster with paid days off inserted. Nobody ever paid me for my weekends. And nobody sure as fuck ever paid me over a million dollars over and above my hourly rate for the privilege of training me.

You'll find that most who are "salaried" are paid for their days off - that's the big difference between hourly wages and salary. So you begrudge the cost of training doctors? Is it so terribly awful that it costs over 1 million dollars over 6 years to train someone who makes life and death decisions - I want doctors who are well trained, competent and capable of making sound and well-reasoned decisions.

I suggest that you believe fuck all you hear from the union over the next few weeks industrial action.

Do I detect a little union bashing?

[russd7]

Not going to work...

To licence a car for 12 months = $43.50
To licence a 601cc+ bike for 12 months = $24.50

What makes the difference in the total amount paid is the ACC levy - to have ACC funding emergency servise, i.e. fire and ambulance including rescue helicopters, would require a change in legislation covering the activities and responsibilities of ACC. I can't see that happening...

acc already pay the cost for accidents, its all the other shit that has to come out of the health system and we do not want acc to pay for that shit, they already hand out money for shit they were never intended to cover.
ACC dont and never will pay for the fire service, that is still funded from a levy on your insurance which brings up other issues not relevant to this thread

[Ocean1]

The same could be said about firemen and ambulance staff [though I somehow doubt it].

However, I doubt if many or any registrars sit around drinking coffee and eating chocolate biscuits during their shift. Perhaps there might be A&E staff on KB who are willing to share their experience of work - better work stories?




You'll find that most who are "salaried" are paid for their days off - that's the big difference between hourly wages and salary. So you begrudge the cost of training doctors? Is it so terribly awful that it costs over 1 million dollars over 6 years to train someone who makes life and death decisions - I want doctors who are well trained, competent and capable of making sound and well-reasoned decisions.




Do I detect a little union bashing?

They're not salaried, they're on an hourly rate. In fact they've fought tooth and nail to avoid a salary for years. And no, I don't begrudge the cost of training them. But if I'm paying for the training I'm fucked if I'll have them take advantage of that by demanding to be paid hysterically extortionate hourly rates while I do so.

I see the senior docs are demanding $500/hr to cover for the wee darlings while they're out too.

And yes, their's is probably the most militant organisation in the country, but if a religious organisation behaved that way I'd still call them larcenous, hypocritical pricks.

[Moi]

They're not salaried, they're on an hourly rate.

If I remember correctly, a house surgeon is waged probably somewhere between $70 000 and $100 000. A registrar is salaried.

In fact they've fought tooth and nail to avoid a salary for years.

That may be so... I don't remember that be said...

And no, I don't begrudge the cost of training them. But if I'm paying for the training I'm fucked if I'll have them take advantage of that by demanding to be paid hysterically extortionate hourly rates while I do so.

So, someone who has trained for 6 years is being paid a "hysterically extortionate hourly rate" of between $70K and $100K, that's about $55/hour... what does a mechanic charge an hour? What about a plumber? What about a builder?

I see the senior docs are demanding $500/hr to cover for the wee darlings while they're out too.

If top surgeons earn over $500K, then $500/hr is almost twice what they normally earn - that could be "hysterically extortionate"!

And yes, their's is probably the most militant organisation in the country, but if a religious organisation behaved that way I'd still call them larcenous, hypocritical pricks.

Are you sure you mean "larcenous"?

[Moi]

acc already pay the cost for accidents, its all the other shit that has to come out of the health system and we do not want acc to pay for that shit, they already hand out money for shit they were never intended to cover.

I was surprised just how much was paid for by ACC. The point I was trying to make to a certain KBer - whose name we shall not mention - was that if ACC was to pay for more than legislation would need to be changed - personally I don't see that happening.

I agree that ACC has been changed out of all recognition of the initial concept that was introduced in the 1970s, with the result that levies have been increased inappropriately for some sectors...

ACC don't and never will pay for the fire service, that is still funded from a levy on your insurance which brings up other issues not relevant to this thread

Yes, I was aware of that. Was just trying to make a point to someone...

[Ocean1]

If I remember correctly, a house surgeon is waged probably somewhere between $70 000 and $100 000. A registrar is salaried.




That may be so... I don't remember that be said...



So, someone who has trained for 6 years is being paid a "hysterically extortionate hourly rate" of between $70K and $100K, that's about $55/hour... what does a mechanic charge an hour? What about a plumber? What about a builder?



If top surgeons earn over $500K, then $500/hr is almost twice what they normally earn - that could be "hysterically extortionate"!



Are you sure you mean "larcenous"?

Actually, it's way more complicated than that. They're all, in fact salaried, but the salary is based on one of several hourly rates depending on the category of work they're doing. Cat A is the highest rate, (ED) and the only cat requiring up to 60 hrs/week. I'd like to know how many 60hr weeks have been "required", (as opposed to requested) recently, but it's certainly fuck all.

And let's be clear about this: junior doc's are still training. Never mind the mere tradies, I don't know of any profession at all that pays what amounts to an apprentice $70 to $100k while still covering over $1m in training subsidies. Each. And that's not including their several weeks per year all expense paid sabatical leave, their free lunches etc etc etc etc etc.

NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason.

Larceny. Theft. Extortion is usually classed as theft, and I can't but see that demanding moneys under threat of physical duress is anything but.

[russd7]

I was surprised just how much was paid for by ACC. The point I was trying to make to a certain KBer - whose name we shall not mention - was that if ACC was to pay for more than legislation would need to be changed - personally I don't see that happening.

I agree that ACC has been changed out of all recognition of the initial concept that was introduced in the 1970s, with the result that levies have been increased inappropriately for some sectors...




Yes, I was aware of that. Was just trying to make a point to someone...

yeah, i had posted this before i read your further coments

interestingly, the fire service do not receive all the funds the government collects from the fire service levy, a fair portion of those levies go in to the consolidated fund

[Moi]

Actually, it's way more complicated than that. They're all, in fact salaried, but the salary is based on one of several hourly rates depending on the category of work they're doing. Cat A is the highest rate, (ED) and the only cat requiring up to 60 hrs/week. I'd like to know how many 60hr weeks have been "required", (as opposed to requested) recently, but it's certainly fuck all.

And let's be clear about this: junior doc's are still training. Never mind the mere tradies, I don't know of any profession at all that pays what amounts to an apprentice $70 to $100k while still covering over $1m in training subsidies. Each. And that's not including their several weeks per year all expense paid sabbatical leave, their free lunches etc etc etc etc etc.

NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason.

Larceny. Theft. Extortion is usually classed as theft, and I can't but see that demanding moneys under threat of physical duress is anything but.

Much to do with medical provisions in this country is complicated... I'd suggest that too many administrative types are involved with making decisions that really should be made in consultation with clinicians.

I would, also, suggest that the amount of "required" time in an ED varies across the country...

I would hope that ALL doctors, whether junior or senior, continue to train until the day they retire completely. Calling a junior doctor an apprentice is to draw a long bow, a better word would be intern. No issues with sabbatical leave and as for "free lunches"... really?

As for "NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason" - you have evidence to support this statement?

[Old Steve]

I'd just like to go to a Doctor who had been so well trained that he no longer needed to practice!

[Ocean1]

Much to do with medical provisions in this country is complicated... I'd suggest that too many administrative types are involved with making decisions that really should be made in consultation with clinicians.

I would, also, suggest that the amount of "required" time in an ED varies across the country...

I would hope that ALL doctors, whether junior or senior, continue to train until the day they retire completely. Calling a junior doctor an apprentice is to draw a long bow, a better word would be intern. No issues with sabbatical leave and as for "free lunches"... really?

As for "NZ DHB resident doctor is the most sought after junior doc gig on the planet for good reason" - you have evidence to support this statement?

Fuck off, it's hard enough to keep their fingers out of the till as it is. Oh, and managing medical staff is carried out, (strangely enough) by professional managers, not "administrative types".

It does. But outside of extraordinary circumstances, (like half of the local RD's demanding annual leave simultaneously) it's managed within agreed limits.

They may be interns, that doesn't change the fact that they're still under supervision and still training, apprentice is an accurate description for people in that situation. Or is the trades reference derogatory? And as for free lunches: absolutely, it's in the RDA's MECA, not negotiable apparently. Nor is any restrictions on the quantity or quality of such.

It's the considered opinion of most of the off-shore trained doctors I've ever discussed it with over a beer. How many does it take to constitute "evidence"? There's been a few.

[TheTengTheory]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

[nzspokes]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

Thanks for the post. Interesting.

[Ruahine]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

Excellent summation, I hadn't followed all the negotiations and learnt a bit reading that.

I would propose that the strike is potentially undermining efforts to secure more funding to help end single crewing.

[Akzle]

This thread has gone reasonably off topic so I'm gonna bring it back to the actual topic at hand.

This petition. Which I'm gonna outright state is a document disguised by the union to support their ulterior motive.

If you read the wording carefully, the last two statements start with "Ambulance Professionals". To the public, that suggests that it's about the ambulance profession as a whole. Realistically it's actually only in support of that specific union. Thats pretty underhanded and quite frankly bullshit. That letter plays on the general respect the public community has towards paramedics as a whole to garner support.

The media doesn't give the full story. At the beginning of the strike the five unions were given the latest offer and First Union decided to strike anyway and THEY walked away from negotiations. The current thing FU wants is 2% pay rise with back pay for one year, they've also stipulated that they will not come to the table unless they get that demand. That isn't negotiation. That's called throwing your toys out the window like a spoilt child. So to do this, they've twisted and omitted multiple facts to achieve public support.

So realistically you're asking people to sign a document which is worded to manipulate people into thinking they're supporting the actually industry versus the union. When in actual fact, its for the union because they refuse to negotiate and haven't got what they wanted.

Meal breaks: Meal break system has been implemented to ensure staff get their breaks. There are situations where that can be broken, however, if the mealbreak is broken. The staff member is paid T0.5 for it and given a second break. After two broken meal breaks, the ambulance crew is required by law to be stood down unless a PME (public medical emergency) is required. There is a stand-down period after 2 PMEs (don't quote exactly, think its 24 hours).
In fact, St John just revised their meal break policy and implemented it in December. The development of that document had major input from all the unions including First Union (Ambulance Professionals First). It's hypocritical to argue that a company isn't committed to staff safety and welfare when the very document they have helped developed and agreed to addressed that issue.

Single crewing: CEO Peter Bradley has already committed publicly to stop single crewing by 2018 (now 2019 according to recent updates). Considering they're limited by their funding model (funding review by MOH has been completed, currently awaiting results).
So is single crewing been managed? Yes. The majority of the staff from FU are actually based in Auckland. In Akl, if a single crewed ambulance gets dispatched, the nearest available double crew vehicle is automatically dispatched to the same job. In the provincial regions, the single crew ambulances don't get any backup until we call for it unless its a cardiac arrest event or the job notes suggest multiple vehicles are required. Now until the funding review is released, St John can't do shit. Yes there are improvements to be made with how they spend it, but as a whole, it ain't gonna be fixed overnight and the union has used this "issue" to support their campaign about their pay rate.

Do you know the average paramedic earns 10k more than the GDP per capita? Yes, our pay has not kept parity with the increase in clinical risk and responsibility given but thats not what this letter is about. Pay parity and clinical responsibility is a completely separate issue that has nothing to do with this strike action which this petition is actually about.

So no, don't sign the letter, because it's actually underhanded and disguised for an underlying agenda which is First Union not getting what they demand.

Since we're on the topic of ambos, lets address the strike action and the pay cut for striking personnel not complying with uniform policy.
- Staff members are allowed to strike by wearing the health ambos shirt as stipulated in the strike action.
- St John have made a mandate that all staff members striking MUST wear a high visibility vest when they are on a job cycle from the moment they leave the station to the job to finishing. Considering there have been complaints by both the police and the public about difficulty identifying who the ambulance personnel are in scenes, I think this is a completely valid health and safety requirement. On top of that, how unprofessional does it look to break news to someone that a family member is dead when they're wearing a black polo t shirt with health ambo saves lives on it.

The people supporting it are well intentioned, unfortunately, the douchebags heading the campaign are manipulating the truth and disguising their true agenda behind the professions name.

not that you let it get to you or amything eh.