New crash study.

[nzspokes]

I'm probably one of those unusual ones. I've activated the ABS on the BMW many times. Rear is easy, even on sealed roads because of the long travel suspension etc. Front is harder, very rare on sealed roads (partially because of improved riding skills, I very rarely "test" it now) but very easy on gravel to activate one or the other, or both, at will. I also turn off as required, almost always on technical terrain, where I need to lock the wheels. It also has traction control (amongst other things), also tested on seal and gravel regularly. Also high-sided with TC enabled, when it cut my power too late when I was already at opposite lock and steering into the slide (no power = no slide = abrupt change in direction)

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. Front was mostly a case of braking after acceleration, so less weight on the front which meant it lost traction. Obviously get off the brake before you hit the deck.

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

I bought my main road bike because it had ABS.

It wont be tired. It wont panic if I do. It wont miscalculate a loose surface.

Its not perfect but I will take it.

[Ocean1]

I'm probably one of those unusual ones. I've activated the ABS on the BMW many times. Rear is easy, even on sealed roads because of the long travel suspension etc. Front is harder, very rare on sealed roads (partially because of improved riding skills, I very rarely "test" it now) but very easy on gravel to activate one or the other, or both, at will. I also turn off as required, almost always on technical terrain, where I need to lock the wheels. It also has traction control (amongst other things), also tested on seal and gravel regularly. Also high-sided with TC enabled, when it cut my power too late when I was already at opposite lock and steering into the slide (no power = no slide = abrupt change in direction)

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. Front was mostly a case of braking after acceleration, so less weight on the front which meant it lost traction. Obviously get off the brake before you hit the deck.

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

Couple of adds. 100 lbf-ft torque makes traction control a little more useful even on apparently "good" surfaces.

I usually turn off ABS (rear only) when I'm headed anywhere with long stretches of gravel too. TC also, I've never come close to high hi siding because TC turned the wick down half way around a corner, but I'm fucked if I'll have "computer says no" override perfectly good dirt reflexes it took me decades to learn and which still work fine.

Like you with ABS, I like both on elsewhere, at the very least in extremis they might just help, and I don't see any situations where they'll hurt.

[scumdog]

i have grave (oh!) doubts about the benefits of all the shit you post.

what should i do?
(oh!)

(that's rhetorical you idiot. see point number "fuck off and die", above)

What should you do?

Get a bike for a start.

[madbikeboy]

Should be Ok, biggest is tri at 10 riders, should have that. In terms of draft, rules are 35m and usually 2-3m wide. Filming is when we're the red headed step child. Gotta get close to get the footage, gotta stay away to keep officials happy...

Give me a yell if you get stuck (if nine riders end up with mumps or something). Can you also post some pictures of the pillion seat seat up.

I've been given stand downs in non drafting events where a rider has overtaken me and then cut back in too fast. From a officials point of view it looks like the person behind is drafting. And you can't tell an officious anything... I saw a angry competitor at Ironman in WA throw a bike at an official in that circumstance...

[madbikeboy]

Ok can you clear something up for me? You constantly go on about 'luck', as if it's the only thing protecting us out there. So therefore do you believe that being aware of constant hazards etc serves no benefit?

Luck and juju beans. I also carry a rabbiting bit. Although I can't understand why carrying a router part will help.

[madbikeboy]

I

Basically, to sum up, I have experience of all the conditions and outcomes. I'm yes to ABS because it takes away some complexity, allowing you to focus on other things. Eg, hit a large section of smooth tar in the South Island right after a corner during rain. 100kph, not a lot of warning. I could keep the throttle position still, traction control took the power, wheel didn't violently spin, leaving me to focus on my balance while I slithered over the section. Once I'd tackled the priorities (balance and bike attitude) then I could release the throttle etc. I'm on the fence about traction control, in my case it would have to be smarter before I'd say yes.

Ultimately, you need to experience something before automatically rubbishing it.

The truth about situations where ABS is useful is that the commonality is the surprise factor. Something happens that wasn't expected, the normal reaction is to pump the brake, adrenalin kicks in, brain looses a good amount of mass and the walnut sized medulla oblongata starts taking over in that moment.

Training and practise over-rides this natural reaction. But, for most people, that surprise circumstance is normally a cascading sequence of events that takes attention. Hence the prior comments that in a well lit, dry, easily planned tactical event - a competent rider can brake as well as ABS.

But, here in lies the rub. That's not where surprise factor situations happen. They happen when you've worked all day, the light is bad, the road is slick, and the $20 dollars worth of attention is somewhere else.

The ABS denies the initial lock up, and it translates to two important things. One, it identifies and manages the traction. Two, this is the bit that most people don't get - it also allows you to change direction and steer. Most riders can brake well in straight line with practice. Very few can brake at full brakes and then change direction. A good ABS and traction control set up allows you to brake hard, turn in while trail braking too much, and then stabilise the unsettled bike so you don't end up with a 90 degree lean angle.

Is ABS worth the money? Yes. Is it expensive to maintain? No. Is it reliable? Yes.

[madbikeboy]

You tried pricing up anything? BMW final drive wears out (the worn part wasn't replaceable), $3300 for a new one. Air bags in cars? afaik, you can't replace, so the entire vehicle is written off. Engines, clutches, drivetrains, they all wear out. You'll replace the battery / starter motor at some point, they cost too. I've already replaced my drive shaft, final drive and shocks amongst other things. At new prices there is no change from $10k just for those 3 items. Yay for Ebay and wreckers.

A client had a VW Golf with DSG gearbox. Couple of times it decided it didn't have any gears during overtakes (neutral, yay) and once an error was logged, the entire gearbox ($15k) was replaced - under warranty. A cameraman I've worked with had a Touareg. ABS unit got wet, wiring loom affected as well. New ABS was $3k ish, new wiring loom... $20k+ (factory special order, custom built as wasn't being produced) Insurance write off as it was only worth $10k. Parts cost, shoes are cheaper. So perhaps walking is the best option for you?

Don't think I'd want a tip over system, depending on what it did. Many times it would be a really bad thing, unless the bike was already over on it's side, then sure, cut the ignition.

I know of a Fiat 500 that was driven out of the dealership driveway and it rear-ended the car in front. 60 feet total. Just enough speed to get above the air bag turn on threshold. Seven airbags and a dimpled hood. The insurance company assessor didn't even view the car, when he heard the airbags had all gone off, he wrote it off on the spot. Car was brand new.

Airbag suspension system on a Merc AMG63 - $29,000 to replace. If I lose the key fob on my car, it's $2500 for a new key and then the ECU replacement to match it. Range Rover transmission, around $8k to rebuild. Audi Q7 entertainment system in the tailgate got wet due to a bad rubber. $15,000. CAN-BUS system affected by a bad radio forced the transmission into reverse. Problem was the car (E series Merc wagon) was doing 120 KPH at the time. $30,000 odd grand. Petrol in a CRD, injection pump runs at 2,000 PSI, the fuel detonates in the pump and then force fed shrapnel into the motor. Bad juju. Clutch on a Ferrari - $18,000. But, the winner is - I saw a woman rear tap a Lamborghini Diablo, damaged the rear bumper on the very rare SV model. $45,000 for the bumper.

[caspernz]

Well, humour is a very personal thing and it's not always possible to make everyone laugh
(especially those without a sense of humour).

And as for the score being 1-0 in your favour. In your dreams. You haven't seem my email
Inbox the last few days

Well, I for one prefer the Viking approach to humour. Perhaps sarcasm is lost on the one whose name we shall not mention...

There is a big difference between laughing at you and laughing with you. Cant for the life of me work out why you pursue this topic? If you are serious = fail! If you are trolling= fail!

Oh boy, you've hit that nail right on target chap!

But sorry all, I've missed most of the fun on Kiddiebiker today...was out most of the day riding an actual bike with some other lads. No we didn't have any ABS actuations, we avoided the odd cow wandering along a country road, must be down to good forward observation. We managed to stay upright when it rained a little, even on some of the nice shiny bits of tar bleed. This can be managed by avoiding the worst of it, and using a sensible approach speed. We saw some dogs too, but none of them were an issue today. Even spotted a horse and rider, again no problem, slow down and wave at rider, got a wave back even. Geez these country folk are so damn friendly! At one point an enthusiastic group of riders came up behind myself and my trainee, so we waved them past, and they waved back at us. The shock of it all when we didn't succumb to the temptation of trying to keep up with them...yes I know it's just boring wearing this captain sensible hat some days.

Now I just sit back and wait for the mighty Viking to summarise todays crap ejection from a certain unmentionable one into a nice easy giggle inducing read for us all.

[AllanB]

I also ride the CB919, no electronic aids, no ABS etc. Lost traction both front and rear, both through braking and accelerating. Hard braking (again, now rarely tested) unloads the rear, rear wants to swing around and you end up dancing on the rear brake to get some use without locking it. .

Been there on a Hornet - 100 or so round a corner to find a car passing on a blind bend heading toward me on my side parallel to the other car - heavy braking on my end, rear leaving a impressive lengthy wiggle on the road until I release all braking and hit the throttle for a 'fuck it' moment and go for the gap down the centre line. Matter of seconds but I clearly recall both drivers shocked faces as I approached.

ABS would have been nice.

Wouldn't mind it on the Ducati as well - the Brembos are serious speed killers and have that typical initial Ducati bite.

[MarkW]

I have had a reasonable amount of experience with motorcycles with and without ABS.

Starting with some of the physical motorcycle basics – the distance required to stop is largely based on the grip of the front tyre as most motorcycle front brakes have more than sufficient braking power on the front wheel to actually ultimately lock the wheel on a good surface. There are a few exceptions to this generality – with a Harley that has only a single disc on the front being the most common.

Obviously the faster you are travelling the longer it takes to stop and if the grip of the front tyre is a constant then a heavier motorcycle will also take longer to stop than a lighter one. So a sports 600 on a 120/70 17 front tyre/wheel should stop in a shorter distance than a 1200 tourer on exactly the same sized and specified tyre.

The rear brake should be used even on a sports bike. Before you all scream at me, yes I do know that many sports bikes can lift the rear wheel completely off the ground with hard use of the front brake. But you still need to slow the rear wheel down so that when you actually stop and the rear wheel hits the ground again the rear wheel is not still doing 100kph. Obviously the rear brake lever pressure required to slow a wheel in the air is pretty small and conversely a tourer or cruiser will normally need more rear brake pressure to achieve optimum stopping performance.

Different road bike pad materials make very little difference unless the pads take a long time to heat up or get too hot too fast so for a single stop in normal road riding conditions provided the pads are not down to bare metal they will generally work in the manner intended. The biggest differences that arise with the pad materials is how long the pads last and how much feedback the rider receives from the pads [through the brake lever] when braking.

The best stops are made when both wheels are braking so hard that they are both at 99.9999% of the available grip. And remain at this level of grip throughout the entire braking process. It is this last bit that is the hard bit to manage.

Most road riders are fearful of locking the front wheel at higher speeds and so tend not to get to the 99.9999% level at the start of their braking so their stopping distances is not at the optimum. Physics tells us that it is actually easier to lock a wheel as the speed drops so the lever pressure applied may need to be reduced as the speed drops so that the 99.999% level is maintained. Most road surfaces do not give exactly the same amount of grip for the 30 – 40 metres that a stop from 100kph will take. Lots of variables that all have to be sorted by the rider if the motorcycle does not have ABS.

But if the motorcycle does have ABS then there is a set of sensors and a computer that measures the speed of each wheel many times a second and if a lockup is detected uses a powerful pump to remove enough brake pressure on ONLY the wheel that is locked so that it starts turning again.

Provided sufficient lever pressure is applied to lock the wheel in the first place the ABS unit is designed to handle the variable surfaces and the reducing pressure that is needed as the speed drops.

My first ABS equipped motorcycle was a 1989 BMW K100. The ABS that this motorcycle was equipped with was effective but was slower to react than the current ABS units fitted to modern motorcycles. So when braking hard across a gravel carpark at Pukekohe on the riding courses that I ran in the early 90’s it would leave a dotted line as the front wheel locked [very briefly] and then unlocked again. 4 or 5 times a second. And the unlocking process took the front brake back to about 95% braking.

Modern ABS units are much faster acting and 20 or 30 times a second is not unusual. And the easing of the brake pressure is not as drastic so the wheel lock is for a far shorter time and the brakes only ease to very close to the maximum braking force possible.

So, yes a really good rider [or a very lucky one] can technically achieve a better braking performance on a motorcycle without ABS because they remain at the perfect 99.9999% braking level on both wheels for the entire stop. An ABS equipped motorcycle will take a tiny fraction longer to stop if either wheel gets past 100% grip as the brake on that wheel will be eased for a fraction of a second.

And if the rider is never over the 100% braking on either wheel then the ABS will never activate but the stopping distance could well be longer because the maximum braking pressure possible was never applied.

I know I’m not good enough to do the 99.9999% stop so having the ABS unit AS A BACKUP for if [when] I make a mistake is a great additional extra to my motorcycle.

If all riders have perfect positioning and lines, great observational skills and are fully engrossed in actually riding their motorcycle whilst they fully interact with the environment and all of the conditions at the time then an emergency type stop may never be required. And good luck with that.

[madbikeboy]

You must have been the poster a few years back on here that said they could beat an ABS equipped bike. Do you know how much braking ability you lose if your ABS craps out? With the identical non ABS and ABS bikes I tested on a dry road I only noticed a very slight stability improvement coming to a stop with ABS rather than an improvement in stopping distance with ABS. On a wet road having good wet road handling tyres would perhaps beat an ABS bike on not so good wet weather tyres.

No braking ability is lost if the ABS craps out. It is the same as without ABS.

Nope, wrong again about the tyre in the wet. I proved this wrong in actual testing we did a few years ago for an article - the ABS with a range of normal road tyres could always out brake the same weight bike and rider with full race wets with a 50% land to sea ratio on the same non-abs bike. This was tested across six bikes in different segments.

WHERE THE FUCK DOES YOUR WARPED MIND COME UP WITH THIS CRAP YOU SPOUT??? DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND A NOOB MIGHT READ THIS CRAP AND TAKE YOUR ADVICE WITH FATAL RESULTS?????? YOUR DELUDED OPINION IS ALWAYS WRONG.

[swbarnett]

To me ABS falls in to the same category as chest and back protectors. Yes, it'll probably help in a VERY rare set of circumstances; so rare that I don't see the point.

[Swoop]

Well, you are really proving that you are more than just "stupid" but are "dangerously stupid".

[madbikeboy]

First the reason why I thought an ABS bike lost braking ability if the ABS died was due to hearing once that testing stations failed bikes with ABS if it didn't work so I must have heard that wrong myself?

My comment about good wet weather tyres being more important than ABS was if you listen to most vehicle safety messages like they put on prior to Winter the emphasis is always on checking the condition of your tyres rather than getting your ABS checked. You are the one sport with the warped mind if you think anything I post on here is done with the intention of causing others to crash and I have been posting for years and am yet to hear of any deaths as a result of my posts. I would not rule out deaths resulting from the posts of some others over the years though.

Nope. They fail cars with no working ABS because if it has ABS it's supposed to work. Same with airbags and seat belts.

The safety messages are dumbed down so even dickheads like you realise that driving worn out slicks in the rain is going to end badly. Smart people read the sales brochures and buy 5 Star ANCAP rated vehicles, they usually don't need to be told that worn tyres are bad. Joe Average and even worse, Josephine Average couldn't point to the ABS module under the hood, why waste money to advertise maintenance. That's why most workshops do a multi point service that follows the list of checks that the manufacturer recommend - Joe Average gets told the oil and fliuds are new and the brakes have been checked. The reality is that most good workshops check a fuckload more than that. People should thank their mechanics a lot more than they do - their mechanic is the one checking their brake lines with a torch and is still patient when they question his bill. How often do you replace your brake fluid.? I can tell you how I often I do, and even what type of fluid each vehicle uses. If you can't answer the basics, how can you pretend you're informed with complexity like ABS?

Ignorance like yours spreads. What happened to respecting intelligence?? When did common sense and thinking get replaced by crackpot ideas and fake news? Your stupidity puts others in danger. Think I'm wrong? Ask the KB Mods if you can be a mentor and then watch them laugh themselves into unconsciousness.

Do you think that dead people write posts on here after their passing saying I wish I hadn't listened to that bad advice?

[madbikeboy]

Thats why the Dog and Lemon Guide says Avoid Euros like the plague. They are nice to drive when they go though. My WOF guy said Euros and Subarus fail WOFs the most.

I see cars that have been crashed on a daily basis, sometimes very bad crashes. I'm sticking to my Euros. I don't give a fuck what it costs to keep my cars on the road - I care that the next drunk driver who runs a red or hits me head on after driving down a one way street the wrong way (both true events btw) isn't going to harm me. He can get hosed out of his fucking shitbox Nissan, and I'll buy another Volvo.