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Thread: North Korea's future ... or lack thereof

  1. #16
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    12 April, 2017: China is increasingly angry at Koreans in general for not showing sufficient respect. The biggest (and growing) problem is North Korea. China wants a stable communist dictatorship in North Korea, not a failed government that would send several million starving refugees fleeing across the border. China also does not want North Korea to collapse and get absorbed by South Korea. That would put a democracy on China's border and give many Chinese a view of how things might be much better with a different political system in China. Koreans are seen as "younger brothers" to China, and it's embarrassing if the younger brother outdoes his older sibling. South Korean democracy is played down in China, but that would be difficult if a democratic, united, Korea were right on the border.

    The Chinese have made it more obvious to the North Korean leadership that China will support pro-China elements in the North Korean government if the current North Korean leadership fails to turn things around. China has recently sent 150,000 additional troops to the North Korean border to emphasize Chinese concern. While many of these troops are there for training (which the Chinese Army is doing a lot more of), other are to reinforce border security and most of those additional troops are showing up at the border so North Koreans can see them and draw their own conclusions. The latest escalation is accompanied by blunt suggestions in Chinese state controlled media that perhaps some Chinese military action inside North Korea might be more persuasive.

    At the moment the Chinese are concentrating on persuading North Korea to drop its nuclear weapons program, which is seen as aimed at China as well as South Korea, Japan and the United States. The Chinese don't mind if the North Koreans extract a high price from South Korea, Japan and America for this, as long as the nukes are gone, and stay gone. Again, failure to comply may lead to more energetic action against Kim dynasty rule.

    These threats resonate with Koreans. For thousands of years China has been the “big brother” in East Asia and all neighbouring states are “little brothers” who must behave accordingly and not do anything to make big brother look bad. While North Korea likes to brag that it became blood brothers with China during the Korean War (1950-53) the truth of the matter is that the North Koreans have always resented the overbearing Chinese. This has been going on for over a thousand years and now the North Koreans have found ways to manipulate humiliate and frustrate their unpopular big brother. You really have to be Korean to appreciate this and the Chinese would really like to find some way out of this mess. Threatening North Korea with attack is now on the table because economic punishment does not seem to have worked.

    For China the main threat from North Korea is also economic. China wants to avoid chaos in North Korea because that would be bad for the Chinese economy and increase the threat of conflict with even more dangerous opponents like Japan, South Korea and the United States. The most extreme (but acceptable) measures China could try include literally taking control of North Korea, something which China has done in the distant past. Staging a coup in North

    Korea has always been a possibility but the paranoid (for good reason in this case) North Korean leadership has made it difficult for China to recruit enough North Korean officials to make this feasible. That said, the potential is still there and China could still go this route. Many North Koreans believe that the Chinese will just move in and take over if it appears that the North Korean government is about to fall apart or otherwise becoming too dangerous to China. The Chinese takeover plan apparently includes installing pro-Chinese North Koreans as head of a new "North Korean" government, and instituting the kind of economic reforms they have been urging the North Korean to undertake for over a decade. Fear of this sort of thing is apparently a major reason why Kim Jong Un had his older brother assassinated in February. The brother had frequently let it be known that he had no interest in running North Korea. China just wants a less self-destructive ruler in North Korea but there doesn’t appear to be any viable candidates.

    The Chinese do not want North Korea to merge with South Korea either. All the neighbours (especially China and South Korea) want North Korea to stay independent, and harmless. Thus China is willing to unofficially annex North Korea, knowing that the South Koreans would go along with this as long as the fiction of North Korean independence was maintained. South Korea won't admit this, but most South Koreans know that absorbing North Korea would put a big dent in South Korean living standards. That is more unpopular than any other outcome. While all Koreans would like a united Korea, far fewer are willing to pay the price.


    The South

    South Korea has also been a troublesome younger brother. Since early 2017 China has increased its economic pressure on South Korea to cancel deployment of THAAD anti-missile missiles. Throughout 2016 the economic pressure was not working out so but that is changing as China ordered (“suggested”) in early March that Chinese tourists avoid South Korea. That had an immediate impact because most Chinese (who account for about half the tourist traffic in South Korea) obeyed and stayed away.

    Normally a quarter of South Korean exports go to China and as the losses pile up more South Koreans feel the impact personally. China has also suggested to its political allies in South Korea (leftist parties that have been losing influence as North Korea became more of a problem) to back candidates for the special presidential election (to replace the conservative president recently impeached for corruption) who will be more attentive to Chinese needs. That will be a hard sell and is costing China a lot of cash and goodwill internally (a lot of Chinese are fans of South Korean culture and products) and externally (all the other neighbours note the bullying and see themselves as a potential victim).

    The economic pressure began in 2016 when China banned all legal (licensed) use of South Korean movies, TV shows and popular music inside China. Months later that was expanded to include popular consumer items like air purifiers and heated toilet seats. The bans began with the aspects of South Korean culture were most popular in China and very lucrative for the South Korean firms that produce them. It’s also a point of pride for South Koreans in general that Chinese admire, and pay for, a very public aspect of Korean culture. The Chinese intimidation campaign went into high gear after China suspended discussions on joint defence matters in early November 2016 because South Korea made it clear it would not, under any circumstances, abandon plans to install American THAAD anti-missile systems.

    Because of continued North Korean nuclear and ballistic missile development South Korea sped up deployment and now plans to have THAAD operational in 2017, several years earlier than originally planned. China, Russia and North Korea have long opposed THAAD. China will not come right out and say it but they object mainly because THAAD would also make South Korea less vulnerable to intimidation by Chinese ballistic missiles. South Korean voters understand that so all the threats are having less impact than China expected but China keeps adding to the economic pain and South Koreans are unhappy with the economic cost, as well as a reminder that China is the historical threat to Korean independence.

    China wants Korea to behave more like the other neighbours. Cambodia, Burma, Thailand and the Philippines take the Chinese money and behave. Why can’t the Koreans? Chinese expect the Japanese (who are believed to be part Korean) to be stubborn and troublesome but the Koreans should know better.

    11 April, 2017: A Chinese daily newspaper (Global Times) known for being a state-controlled media outlet used to test new ideas published an item today pointing out that if North Korea does not abandon its nuclear weapons program (which is seen as a threat to China) then China will bomb the nuclear facilities and North Korea will have to live with that or suffer further military and economic consequences they cannot respond to (by attacking China). This article also warned the United States not to contemplate doing this, as North Korea was for neighbour China to deal with, not some distant superpower. Within hours the article was removed from the Global Times website, but many people had seen it and it still existed in Google cache. In other words, China was telling North Korea that stronger measures from China were now a possibility. At the same time the U.S. was making it clear that the kind of attack on Syria the U.S. recently carried out could be tried on North Korea. China agrees that it might come to that but they insist that the bombs or missiles be Chinese.

    10 April, 2017: The government is offering cash rewards of up to $72,000 to Chinese who supply useful information about foreign spies operating in the Chinese capital. This sort of thing is meant to intimidate foreign visitors and by giving out some big rewards from time it will cheer people up. Chinese cities, especially the capital, have some of the most unhealthy air in the world.

    09 April, 2017: South Korea and the United States made official announcements that the U.S. was not considering an attack on Kim Jong Un in an effort to replaced his government. Kim Jong Un is alarmed that on April 6th the U.S. bombed a Syrian airbase because Syria used nerve gas against its own people. Today an American naval task force (containing a large aircraft carrier and three destroyers armed with cruise missiles) was ordered to move immediately from Singapore to the Korean coast.
    What’s a paranoid dictator to think? The U.S. has also recently said that from now on it is ignoring all the “media theatre” North Korea loves to broadcast and concentrating on concrete measures to remove nuclear weapons and long range missiles from North Korea. Kim Jong Un keeps issuing statements that war is imminent. But he and his predecessors have been doing that for a long time and there has been no war. These declarations no longer have any meaning and the Americans are calling out Kim Jong Un on that point. Everyone knows that if Kim Jong Un ordered a military attack on South Korea, Japan and any U.S. forces they can reach it would be the end of Kim rule in North Korea and probably the end of Kim Jong Un as well.

    07 April, 2017: China ordered companies that buy North Korean coal to refuse shipments from now on. This is a response to the North Korean missile tests two days ago. In February China ordered a halt to all coal imports from North Korea but corruption got around this. This was essential for North Korea because coal exports to China account for at more than half the foreign currency North Korea earns each year from China (which accounts for 90 percent of all North Korean legal foreign trade). This is a major problem for North Korea because there is no one else they can sell their coal to while China will have no problem finding other suppliers (like the United States). Today North

    Korean ships carrying coal were turned away from the Chinese ports where the still deliver the coal illegally. How long this enforcement of the sanctions will last is unknown but North Korea understands that the corruption in China means anything is possible if you can pay. And the cost of getting sanctioned coal into China just went way up.

    Meanwhile Japan extended its 2006 economic sanctions against North Korea for two more years. Until 2006 one of the best sources of cash for North Korea was the 600,000 ethnic Koreans living in Japan. The Japanese Koreans long viewed North Korea as some kind of fictional paradise, especially because of North Koreas hostility to Japan. While the Koreans in Japan prospered (at least compared to Koreans in North Korea), they also continued to suffer discrimination from Japanese. But as word of the great North Korean famine of the 1990s leaked out, many Koreans in Japan lost faith in their dreams. North Korea was no paradise, no promised land. Some moved to South Korea, others got more comfortable with Japanese culture, and everyone was less willing to contribute cash to the cause up north. But even in 2006 there were still many Japanese Koreans willing to do business with North Korea but the sanctions put a large dent in that.

    06 April, 2017: In the United States the Chinese leader and the new American president met for the first time. They were polite to each other but while the two leaders were having dinner the United States launched a cruise missile attack on Syria. The Chinese leader was personally (and quietly) informed of this by his host before the meal ended. As soon as the Chinese leader was back in China the Chinese media became more critical of these American moves and basically told the Americans that if North Korea has to be bombed, we will do it.

    South Korea revealed that it had recently conducted a successful test of a locally made solid fuel ballistic missile with a range of 800 kilometres. This enables South Korea to hit targets anywhere in North Korea with weapons (ballistic missiles) that North Korea is not equipped to stop. This comes 18 months after the announcement that a ballistic missile with a range of 500 kilometres was successfully tested. That test ended decades of restrictions on South Korean ballistic missile development.
    In 2012 the United States halted its efforts to restrict South Korean missile development. The South Koreans tried for over a decade to develop warmer relations with North Korea and all efforts failed. The 2010 North Korea attacks (using artillery and a torpedo than sank a warship) on South Korea changed a lot of attitudes in South Korea, and the United States. North Korea is still a big problem but since 2010 South Korea has been free to try whatever it thinks will work.

    05 April, 2017: For the second time since February North Korea conducted a test of its “Polaris 2” (or KN-15) ballistic missile, which was successfully fired from canister on a tracked vehicle acting as a TEL (Transporter Erector Launcher). This launch was carried out while the Chinese president was in the United States to meet his American counterpart. That makes this particular launch appear as North Korea trying to embarrass China. Not a good idea, nor was the implications of the missiles tested. A mobile TEL carrying a ballistic missile that can reach all of South Korea and parts of Japan (and China), especially one armed with a chemical or nuclear warhead, makes North Korea a much more dangerous threat.

    28 March, 2017: Commercial photo satellites spotted Chinese J-11 fighters at the new airbase built on Woody Island in the Paracels chain. China claims airstrips like this are for supporting civilian activities.

    08 March, 2017: China openly asked North Korea to stop its nuclear and ballistic missile tests and implied that if North Korea complied China would persuade the United States and South Korea to halt their military preparations to deal with a North Korean attack. North Korea was apparently not impressed.


    * THAAD: Theatre High Altitude Air Defence.
    A missile system that should intercept missiles (ballistic and others) in the higher atmosphere.
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  2. #17
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    I wonder if the Chinese are nearing a 1989 Berlin Wall moment?
    Maybe a new series of M*A*S*H
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  3. #18
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    Banning heated toilet seats , is just not cricket



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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    12 April, 2017: China is increasingly angry at Koreans ...etc .
    Interesting piece. I'd never thought of North Korea as a buffer between communist China and capitalist South Korea but it does make sense.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by admenk View Post
    I do have to say, watching the TV pictures of N Korean military parades and American fleet manoeuvres.......it's hard to see much difference
    Only us white folks are allowed to have nukes. It might be lost in translation but he only stated he would retaliate if attacked first. It's a lot of sabre rattling and chest puffing. And then probably some negotiations and money to be transferred and it will all settle down again. Media got to keep those ratings up on slow news days.
    I love the smell of twin V16's in the morning..

  6. #21
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    I've also been watching the North Korean military parades

    .Whoooaaar , domineering women in thigh high boots , ...

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  7. #22
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    [QUOTE=oldrider)?

    North Korea is no threat to anyone yet apart from sabre rattling :[/QUOTE]


    Well, in the late 1930s all the professional diplomats felt that Hitler and the Japanese could be pressured, reasoned with, accommodated, appeased, and bought off. All of these senior wise men were sure that in the end the bad boys they had to deal with would see the economic wisdom of pushing for the best deal they could get, short of going to war.

    They were wrong then. The corresponding crowd of diplomats and area experts today are saying that Kim Jong Un is playing a calculated bluff to cut a better deal.

    I think they're wrong now. I think the little fat boy is not capable of making the fully rational calculations we want from him. Others around him, who would be in line to replace him, are likely to be more clear-headed. I still say we need to terminate him, and quickly. This is a bad situation, 1938 all over again.

  8. #23
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    eek

    I read today that the issue with a preemptive strike on North Korea is the huge amount of firepower they have ready to go, pointed at Seoul, a city of 10 million. A strike on North Korea and it is all on.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oakie View Post
    One of the Tom Clancy novels deals with this scenario in a believable manner. Of course novels and reality are two different things. Surprising how many situations Tom Clancy wrote about years before they happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zedder View Post
    I've always enjoyed reading his books.
    +1 to the above. One of my fav of all time, scary how a lot of the stuff he wrote came to be, lets hope no greeny scientist ever get the idea that we need to die like it Rainbow 6 though...

    Quote Originally Posted by SVboy View Post
    I read today that the issue with a preemptive strike on North Korea is the huge amount of firepower they have ready to go, pointed at Seoul, a city of 10 million. A strike on North Korea and it is all on.
    My understanding of the Cold war strategy (this may be well wrong) was that nukes were aimed at nukes in the hope you could get his nukes before he got you. So every time the other guy built a nuke you had to find it, build another nuke and aim it at it. This went on for years and years until there were so many Nukes the whole world could be blown up millions of times. If the Yanks or the Chinese want to disarm the North Koreans they'll need lots of intel on where they are located and more than just a carrier battle group to blow up any capability he has of doing damage to the south. Any nukes or chem weapons he may or may not have will need to be destroyed up before he can send them south.

    It'll be a dice roll...

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SVboy View Post
    I read today that the issue with a preemptive strike on North Korea is the huge amount of firepower they have ready to go, pointed at Seoul, a city of 10 million. A strike on North Korea and it is all on.
    Praying it never comes to that. I have all my relatives and friends living in Seoul.


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  11. #26
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    The North Korean military is rooted.

    There hasn't been enough fuel to conduct training exercises for years. The "airforce" is lucky to fly anything resembling a training sortie once per year/per pilot, so don't expect anything from them.
    Navy? Well, the do make nice targets...
    Army. Artillery can be an issue, as can missile launches (hence Patriot / THAAD / Irn Dome systems to defend the South) along with pre-positioned espionage and commando teams.

    The average army unit spends most of the time helping with farmers raising and harvesting crops, and stealing what they can get away with to survive. The same applies to the higher echelons of the ministerial people.
    If the Nth K "Minister of Silly Walks" decides to visit China and not return, he knows that ALL of his family, relations and cousins, will be off to the forced labour camps. Deciding wisely is a matter of life and death.
    However those who have managed to leave, send back funds to assist their families and relatives.

    The rogue element is the missiles and the Bucket's of instant sunshine. The nukes have not been perfected and are unreliable (mainly) with the missiles being short ranged.
    Targets could include Japan, Malasia and ... China. This worries Xi.

    The fat kid is unstable but sabre rattling to attempt to bribe donations of aid from any nation, which goes straight into the pockets of the politicians - hence aid has dried up unless the aid agency delivers it to the people. With previous attempts of doing this and the quantity of bribes needed to get shipments through, the aid has dried up. No surprises there (just the same in Africa).

    It does look like more of a play on America's part, to finally get the Chinese to sort out Fatty-boy. Either way the winner loses, by inheriting a poverty stricken poison-chalice (all sides recognise this).
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Autech View Post
    +1 to the above. One of my fav of all time, scary how a lot of the stuff he wrote came to be, lets hope no greeny scientist ever get the idea that we need to die like it Rainbow 6 though...

    Yep, he's good alright. That Rainbow 6 book was certainly a bit different in terms of bad guys.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    The North Korean military is rooted.

    There hasn't been enough fuel to conduct training exercises for years. The "airforce" is lucky to fly anything resembling a training sortie once per year/per pilot, so don't expect anything from them.
    Navy? Well, the do make nice targets...
    Army. Artillery can be an issue, as can missile launches (hence Patriot / THAAD / Irn Dome systems to defend the South) along with pre-positioned espionage and commando teams.

    The average army unit spends most of the time helping with farmers raising and harvesting crops, and stealing what they can get away with to survive. The same applies to the higher echelons of the ministerial people.
    If the Nth K "Minister of Silly Walks" decides to visit China and not return, he knows that ALL of his family, relations and cousins, will be off to the forced labour camps. Deciding wisely is a matter of life and death.
    However those who have managed to leave, send back funds to assist their families and relatives.

    The rogue element is the missiles and the Bucket's of instant sunshine. The nukes have not been perfected and are unreliable (mainly) with the missiles being short ranged.
    Targets could include Japan, Malasia and ... China. This worries Xi.

    The fat kid is unstable but sabre rattling to attempt to bribe donations of aid from any nation, which goes straight into the pockets of the politicians - hence aid has dried up unless the aid agency delivers it to the people. With previous attempts of doing this and the quantity of bribes needed to get shipments through, the aid has dried up. No surprises there (just the same in Africa).

    It does look like more of a play on America's part, to finally get the Chinese to sort out Fatty-boy. Either way the winner loses, by inheriting a poverty stricken poison-chalice (all sides recognise this).
    Yes but the have fkin deep holes they can hide in

    Need more than ur average bunker buster

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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    Who ever nukes who first the result will be a "Nuclear Winter" which is a term I heard during the nuclear war fear between Russia and the US back in the late 60's early 70's. The NZ media needs to do stories on such a scenario rather than always writing stories in the newspapers about the Alpine Fault going, as my bet is we will see a Nuclear Winter before then.
    Already prepared
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    PS there is a good book out there on nuclear war I have a PDF copy if anyone wants

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian d marge View Post
    PS there is a good book out there on nuclear war I have a PDF copy if anyone wants
    Best I've read was 'On the Beach' by Neville Shute. Read it in my early teens. Way better than the movie.
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