The 2017 Election Thread

[husaberg]

So if the Poms have nothing to hide, and are indeed telling the truth, why not comply with Russia's requests? Seems they're the ones not playing the game.

The Russians had the facts they needed to be able to answer the simple questions.
1, They had lost control of the Nerve agent used, that was clearly developed by them
2, or they had in fact used it themselves.
They didn't answer the simple questions thus they were sanctioned
Seriously are you honestly suggesting they needed a sample of the nerve agent to know if they carried out an attack?
Are you suggesting they needed a sample of the nerve agent to know if they had any go missing?

[Katman]

The Russians had the facts they needed to be able to answer the simple questions.

Maybe they're wanting some sort of proof that it's even the Novichok strain of nerve agent.

[Viking01]

The Russians had the facts they needed to be able to answer the simple questions.
1, They had lost control of the Nerve agent used, that was clearly developed by them
2, or they had in fact used it themselves.
They didn't answer the simple questions thus they were sanctioned
Seriously are you honestly suggesting they needed a sample of the nerve agent to know if they carried out an attack?
Are you suggesting they needed a sample of the nerve agent to know if they had any go missing?

I think that the statements you made above need some challenge.

A. Source

Personally, I think that there has been enough information (from various sources)
to indicate that to accuse the Russians specifically of using such a chemical agent
is indeed a very long stretch of the imagination e.g.

-Russian destroyed their own stocks back in the 1990's under OPCW watch;
-The US were involved in a cleanup of the last lab (in Uzbekistan) back in the late
1980's , so the US was quite able to gain possession itself;
-The nerve agent is apparently not that difficult to synthesise, according to a number
of renown synthetic organic chemists. Dangerous - yes; difficult - no.
-Iran has admitted to having synthesised a Novichek agent within the last few years.

If Porton Downs staff have been able to (or are planning to) verify the identify of the
nerve agent, then how did they acquire their own sample for comparison purposes ?

B. identification

Porton Down lab staff have also been recently quoted as saying that the sample may
possibly be "a Novichek or some related compound", and that it would take 2-3 weeks
to perform enough analysis to conclusively confirm its true identity.

Synthesis of organic compounds often leaves a chemical "signature". I find it quite
realistic to think that any residual samples obtained by OPCW during the destruction
of Russian stocks could be compared against the British sample - and the source of
the British sample from the attack verified as being Russian (or not).

Do I think the British sample is Russian in origin ? Highly unlikely.

Do I think the Russians would be so stupid to undertake such an attack in the first
place, and use an agent which might track back to themselves ? Again, highly unlikely.

Perhaps read the following link:

http://www.theblogmire.com/30-questi...-skripal-case/

C. Politics

The fact that the British political establishment were so very quick to (i) categorically
identify the nerve agent (ii) accuse the Russians (iii) demand that the Russians disprove
the British assertion - without providing them a sample (as per OPCW protocol) should
tell you that this is a "false flag" event and a political "snow job".

The "innocent until proven guilty" basis of international law has been quickly cast aside.

And the non-provision of a sample to the Russians - to allow them to defend themselves
within the international arena - just adds further weight.

The "sanctioning" of the Russians was always going to happen. For so many reasons.

If you have any further doubt, perhaps read the following two links:

https://southfront.org/skripal-case-the-big-picture/

http://thesaker.is/how-the-east-can-save-the-west/

[husaberg]

Maybe they're wanting some sort of proof that it's even the Novichok strain of nerve agent.

Well if that was the case maybe you can explain exactly why they would need a sample of the nerve agent to ascertain if.
1, They had lost control of the Novichok nerve agent that was developed by them and them alone.
2, or they had in fact used it themselves to carry out the attack.

Because they would clearly know if they carried out the attack themselves?
Also they would also know if some had gone missing?

Yet they refused to answer the very direct question asked by the British leader if they had carried out the attack or if they had lost control of some of their nerve agents.

[husaberg]

I think that the statements you made above need some challenge.

A. Source

Personally, I think that there has been enough information (from various sources)
to indicate that to accuse the Russians specifically of using such a chemical agent
is indeed a very long stretch of the imagination e.g.

-Russian destroyed their own stocks back in the 1990's under OPCW watch;
-The US were involved in a cleanup of the last lab (in Uzbekistan) back in the late
1980's , so the US was quite able to gain possession itself;
-The nerve agent is apparently not that difficult to synthesise, according to a number
of renown synthetic organic chemists. Dangerous - yes; difficult - no.
-Iran has admitted to having synthesised a Novichek agent within the last few years.

If Porton Downs staff have been able to (or are planning to) verify the identify of the
nerve agent, then how did they acquire their own sample for comparison purposes ?

B. identification

Porton Down lab staff have also been recently quoted as saying that the sample may
possibly be "a Novichek or some related compound", and that it would take 2-3 weeks
to perform enough analysis to conclusively confirm its true identity.

Synthesis of organic compounds often leaves a chemical "signature". I find it quite
realistic to think that any residual samples obtained by OPCW during the destruction
of Russian stocks could be compared against the British sample - and the source of
the British sample from the attack verified as being Russian (or not).

Do I think the British sample is Russian in origin ? Highly unlikely.

Do I think the Russians would be so stupid to undertake such an attack in the first
place, and use an agent which might track back to themselves ? Again, highly unlikely.

Perhaps read the following link:

http://www.theblogmire.com/30-questi...-skripal-case/

C. Politics

The fact that the British political establishment were so very quick to (i) categorically
identify the nerve agent (ii) accuse the Russians (iii) demand that the Russians disprove
the British assertion - without providing them a sample (as per OPCW protocol) should
tell you that this is a "false flag" event and a political "snow job".

The "innocent until proven guilty" basis of international law has been quickly cast aside.

And the non-provision of a sample to the Russians - to allow them to defend themselves
within the international arena - just adds further weight.

The "sanctioning" of the Russians was always going to happen. For so many reasons.

If you have any further doubt, perhaps read the following two links:

https://southfront.org/skripal-case-the-big-picture/

http://thesaker.is/how-the-east-can-save-the-west/

There was more than one lab so all your points relating to it are moot
The fact that the Russians refuse to answer the simple questions posed to them but still want to carry out a media only denial strategy reveals far more than any conspiracy theory you are trying to push.

I note the Russian ambassador to the EU Chizhov flatly denied that not only That Russia never had any stocks of Novichok He also stated Russia had never manufactured Novichok.
Yet by your own points you are using they clearly did have stocks of Novichok and they clearly had manufactured Novichok.
So what is it have the Russians lied about having it? or not having it?
Especially funny that you state that the Russians have destroyed all their stockpiles of nerve agents
Because by stating this its clear that you didn't know that Russia never even declared its existence Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which oversees a treaty banning their use.
Maybe its time you did a bit of research before offering up so much conspiracy theory that clearly contradicts your own arguments

[Katman]

I note the Russian ambassador to the EU Chizhov flatly denied that not only That Russia never had any stocks of Novichok He also stated Russia had never manufactured Novichok.

Do you have a source for that claim?

[husaberg]

Do you have a source for that claim?

Its a statement he made.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...h-lab-12208590
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politi...retly-12208849
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/18031801.pdf
but cool another Katman gish gallop

so how are you getting on with the previous questions

Maybe they're wanting some sort of proof that it's even the Novichok strain of nerve agent.

Well if that was the case maybe you can explain exactly why they would need a sample of the nerve agent to ascertain if.
1, They had lost control of the Novichok nerve agent that was developed by them and them alone.
2, or they had in fact used it themselves to carry out the attack.

Because they would clearly know if they carried out the attack themselves?
Also they would also know if some had gone missing?

Yet they refused to answer the very direct question asked by the British leader if they had carried out the attack or if they had lost control of some of their nerve agents.

[Katman]

Yet they refused to answer the very direct question asked by the British leader if they had carried out the attack or if they had lost control of some of their nerve agents.

As far as I'm aware Russian authorities have clearly denied carrying out the attack.

[husaberg]

As far as I'm aware Russian authorities have clearly denied carrying out the attack.

Only through the media not in a direct response to the UK leaders questions.
Which is why they were sanctioned.
You seem to have no understanding of how diplomacy works.
Its carried out through defined diplomatic channels not through the media.
As I pointed out they also claimed to have never manufactured it or have even acknowledged it existence of Novichok.

[Viking01]

There was more than one lab so all your points relating to it are mute.
The fact that the Russians refuse to answer the simple questions posed to them but still want to carry out a media only denial strategy reveals far more than any conspiracy theory you are trying to push.

I note the Russian ambassador to the EU Chizhov flatly denied that not only That Russia never had any stocks of Novichok He also stated Russia had never manufactured Novichok.
Yet by your own points you are using they clearly did have stocks of Novichok and they clearly had manufactured Novichok.
So what is it have the Russians lied about having it? or not having it?
Especially funny that you state that the Russians have destroyed all their stockpiles of nerve agents
Because by stating this its clear that you didn't know that Russia never even declared its existence Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which oversees a treaty banning their use.
Maybe its time you did a bit of research before offering up so much conspiracy theory that clearly contradicts your own arguments

A. Laboratories

Irrespective of how many labs "might have been involved", the fact that Porton Downs lab
staff have themselves indicated:

-that the sample may possibly be "a Novichek or some related compound", and
-that it would take 2-3 weeks to perform enough analysis to conclusively confirm its identity

should be an indicator that the "identification" process is not trivial and requires a reasonable
amount of time.

For the politicians to state its identity "with certainty" within two days of the attack does not
imply to me that "a robust chemical analytical process" has been performed.

So I'll disagree with your comment, and simply watch what transpires over the next 2-3 weeks.


B. Conspiracy Theories

Your words, not mine. I'm just interested in a few more facts. And less political spin.


C. Russian Investigation and Manufacture

The Russians have already admitted that their research into such types of agents started well
before the 1970's.

Please note that it is not a single compound we are talking about, but a family of "similar related
compounds". There is no one definitive formulae.

The Russians also acknowledged that their research ultimately led them to believe that these were
not particularly viable agents for warfare purposes.

For those two reasons, large scale manufacture by the Russians was never undertaken - and a
definitive "nerve agent formula" was never declared to OPCW.

However, destruction of stocks of such chemicals held was undertaken by Russia (with OPCW
acknowledgement).

This occurred roughly around the period that "glasnost" between the USA and the USSR was
occurring, and reflected willingness on the Russians part to reduce the risk of large scale death
occurring during a possible conflict.

At that time, the US indicated to the Russians that they were quite agreeable to doing likewise
- but somehow, destruction of US nerve agent stocks has never eventuated.

This is not "conspiracy theory". It's documented fact (though sometimes hard to find within the
literature).


d. Politics

I fully expect the current political sideshow to continue. Especially given the situation in Syria,
and the upcoming FIFA Soccer World Cup in Russia.

I will indeed be surprised if some conclusive result (confirming Russian culpability) ends up being
determined and published to the wider public.

[jasonu]

Especially something that serious.

At that level everything is 'that serious'.

[jasonu]

As far as I'm aware Russian authorities have clearly denied carrying out the attack.

Didn't see that one coming...

[Viking01]

https://www.rt.com/uk/422598-chemica...pert-novichok/

[husaberg]

A. Laboratories
Irrespective of how many labs "might have been involved", the fact that Porton Downs lab
staff have themselves indicated:
-that the sample may possibly be "a Novichek or some related compound", and
-that it would take 2-3 weeks to perform enough analysis to conclusively confirm its identity
should be an indicator that the "identification" process is not trivial and requires a reasonable
amount of time.
For the politicians to state its identity "with certainty" within two days of the attack does not
imply to me that "a robust chemical analytical process" has been performed.
So I'll disagree with your comment, and simply watch what transpires over the next 2-3 weeks.
B. Conspiracy Theories

Your words, not mine. I'm just interested in a few more facts. And less political spin.


C. Russian Investigation and Manufacture
The Russians have already admitted that their research into such types of agents started well
before the 1970's.
Please note that it is not a single compound we are talking about, but a family of "similar related
compounds". There is no one definitive formulae.
The Russians also acknowledged that their research ultimately led them to believe that these were
not particularly viable agents for warfare purposes.
For those two reasons, large scale manufacture by the Russians was never undertaken - and a
definitive "nerve agent formula" was never declared to OPCW.
However, destruction of stocks of such chemicals held was undertaken by Russia (with OPCW
acknowledgement).This occurred roughly around the period that "glasnost" between the USA and the USSR was
occurring, and reflected willingness on the Russians part to reduce the risk of large scale death occurring during a possible conflict.
At that time, the US indicated to the Russians that they were quite agreeable to doing likewise
- but somehow, destruction of US nerve agent stocks has never eventuated.
This is not "conspiracy theory". It's documented fact (though sometimes hard to find within the
literature
d. Politics
I fully expect the current political sideshow to continue. Especially given the situation in Syria,
and the upcoming FIFA Soccer World Cup in Russia.
I will indeed be surprised if some conclusive result (confirming Russian culpability) ends up being
determined and published to the wider public.

If you were interested in anything rather than conspiracy theories or Political spin you would have aknowleded what you were posting was not facts but simply conspiracy theories.
For instance you would have know their was more than one Russian lab involved.
You would have known Russia never declared the existence of the nerve agent to OPCW. Yet you claim that had destroyed it.
You would have known they are now trying to claim it never existed yet you previous post acknowledged that they did develop it and stockpile it.

[Viking01]

If you were interested in anything rather than conspiracy theories or Political spin you would have aknowleded what you were posting was not facts but simply conspiracy theories.
For instance you would have know their was more than one Russian lab involved.
You would have known Russia never declared the existence of the nerve agent to OPCW. Yet you claim that had destroyed it.
You would have known they are now trying to claim it never existed yet you previous post acknowledged that they did develop it and stockpile it.

Did you actually read and understand the points I made in the previous post ?