The 2017 Election Thread

[Ocean1]

There's a few salient points missing there - like what the global economy was doing around 2009, the fact that Labour neglected our public infrastructure for their entire term ...

A few? Labour blew the largest, most sustained revenue take in NZ history on social experiments and a broken train set, leaving the purse so empty there was a very real risk of defaults, having deferred infrastructure spending in the billions to be dealt with through a worldwide recession.

A recession NZ dealt with well enough to gain international attention for how well it's economic policy changes produced world leading productivity.



Look, we get it, the voting majority want more money from the rich, just stop pretending there's some sort of ethical or moral rationale for what's actually simple petty larceny. And not so petty either.

[Ocean1]

Would appear from HB's charts that you can save a lot of money by having Visions ( Waterview Tunnel, Electric Train Network etc) as opposed to actually building them.

I dunno, visions of the transmission gully route out of Wellington lasted about 70 years and cost more than the total budget to actually do the fucking job.

[oldrider]

The only serious income the government has is Taxation - when they borrow the taxpayer coughs up to repay that debt+interest!

Therefore every three years the taxpayers are open tendering a public accountancy contract for politicians to apply for.

When the tender closes the successful applicants get together and form a company and "decide" how they are going to manage (or not!) the contract!

The successful contractors are dependant and accountable to each other for their tenure!

The unsuccessful applicants become beneficiaries and are paid (by the taxpayers) an allowance to hang about and criticise the successful contractor's.

Voters should be careful what they wish for - it's always going to hurt whatever the outcome! Do we get value for our money with this system?

[Ocean1]

At this point, I reckon that everyone on here has made up their mind which way they're voting and what's being said is just a rant in case it doesn't go the way they want...

I'll be interested to see over the next year or so just how many of the doomsayers will exit overseas.

Not you Bob, if I win lotto, I'm coming to visit in France...

Of course, there is no argument whatsoever capable of overcoming beliefs based on self interested preconceptions.

You don't have to wait, just cast your eye back to how many Kiwi's jumped ship to Aussie over the last generation, how much tax did they pay there rather than here? That's just recently slowed down, and in the meantime we've lost the most productive of our people. And what's left is looking and sounding more and more like the caricature of the whining Poms we used to laugh at.

Come say hello, I'll be in his pool knocking back Margaritas.

[mada]

Of course, there is no argument whatsoever capable of overcoming beliefs based on self interested preconceptions.

You don't have to wait, just cast your eye back to how many Kiwi's jumped ship to Aussie over the last generation, how much tax did they pay there rather than here? That's just recently slowed down, and in the meantime we've lost the most productive of our people. And what's left is looking and sounding more and more like the caricature of the whining Poms we used to laugh at.

Come say hello, I'll be in his pool knocking back Margaritas.

Yet Australia has higher taxes.... Then again they have significantly higher wages and higher productivity.

Despite our "economic success" as you put it, our productivity hasn't budged. It's commented on internationally because our longer working hours for less worker output are significantly poor compared to other OECD countries and have not budged.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...-oecd-s-sights

9 Years is a long enough time to achieve shit. If you have to resort to blaming previous governments when you have such a long period of rule, then we could all go back to pinning all the blame on Muldoon's National Govt. The whole retain power at the cost of everything is getting lame.

It would be good if National and Labour actually sat the fuck down with each other and listened to Treasury for once on the implications of their policies eg:

National: "We're going to help first home buyers by boosting first home grant" "We'll help renters by spending billions on accommodation supplement"
Treasury: "These subsidies will only inflate the markets and not increase homeownership rates"

Labour: "We're going to help low income workers by raising minimum wages"
Treasury: "These increases will cause inflation, or increase unemployment"

Treasury: "The pension needs to be altered NOW. In its current state it is unaffordable"
Labour under Helen: "Lets create a private saving scheme to prepare"
National under Key: "Lets use that scheme for property!"

Labour now: "lets just increase funding for the saving scheme / means test"
National now: "We wont do anything" "Oh wait we will do something in 2047"

NZFirst: "Don't you touch the fucking pension. Free Dr's visits for the elderly, give them free debit cards! on top of their subsidised transport"

[Ocean1]

Yet Australia has higher taxes.... Then again they have significantly higher wages and higher productivity.

Despite our "economic success" as you put it, our productivity hasn't budged. It's commented on internationally because our longer working hours for less worker output are significantly poor compared to other OECD countries and have not budged.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nation...-oecd-s-sights

9 Years is a long enough time to achieve shit. If you have to resort to blaming previous governments when you have such a long period of rule, then we could all go back to pinning all the blame on Muldoon's National Govt. The whole retain power at the cost of everything is getting lame.

It would be good if National and Labour actually sat the fuck down with each other and listened to Treasury for once on the implications of their policies eg:

National: "We're going to help first home buyers by boosting first home grant" "We'll help renters by spending billions on accommodation supplement"
Treasury: "These subsidies will only inflate the markets and not increase homeownership rates"

Labour: "We're going to help low income workers by raising minimum wages"
Treasury: "These increases will cause inflation, or increase unemployment"

Treasury: "The pension needs to be altered NOW. In its current state it is unaffordable"
Labour under Helen: "Lets create a private saving scheme to prepare"
National under Key: "Lets use that scheme for property!"

Labour now: "lets just increase funding for the saving scheme / means test"
National now: "We wont do anything" "Oh wait we will do something in 2047"

NZFirst: "Don't you touch the fucking pension. Free Dr's visits for the elderly, give them free debit cards! on top of their subsidised transport"

No, our productivity is very good, we just don't see that in terms of gdp/php because exchange rates are heavilly weighted against us. If you doubt that just brows through the web for both US and NZ products available in the US, and what they charge there vs here. We're a tiny speck on the international economy, pipsqueaks always have to work harder.

And yes, tax in Aus is higher, as are wages, but the reason our more productive units go there is because the standard of living is better. Which almost certainly has fuck all to do with tax and more to do with the same reason NZ doesn't get paid as much: they're bigger.

And yes, maybe if people didn't expect more of governments than their means allow them to provide we might get less bullshit and more jellybeans.

Me, in spite of the truly hideous tax I pay I'd be happy to pay more. All they'd have to do is spend it on everyone, equally. I get tired of being fleeced more and at a higher rate at every possible opportunity only to be told: "You're a rich prick, you don't need help".

[Maha]

Voted today, 100% certain I backed a winner.

[oldrider]

Voted today, 100% certain I backed a winner.

M'kay - lets track that action over the next three years and see if it gets you the the satisfaction that you are so anticipating!

First time in my life - I have decide not to vote! - If I change my mind at the last minute it will be for the incumbent National local candidate and party vote National.

Hobson's choice really!

[pritch]

leaving the purse so empty there was a very real risk of defaults,

Wot? Like National under Muldoon did? I think that was worse, there was concern they couldn't even pay the overseas embassies.

I'm old so maybe I harbour less illusions/delusions. Remember that whoever you vote for, you are voting for a politician. Politicians tell you what they think you want to hear but they will do what they want. Don't expect too much, that way lies disappointment.

Having said that, you should vote. There are people in the world who don't have that opportunity.

[AllanB]

9 Years is a long enough time to achieve shit.

On the face of it yes.

BUT look at how the rest of the world went broke, mad and changed governments like panties during that period of GLOBAL economic unrest.

I put forward that they performed superbly for the first two terms then dialed back for the third. If they get a fourth (??????) they better bloody shine instead of presume that they will be outed the next time (statistically a given) and just cruise for three years.


Side note. I think National should have courted The Green Party as soon as Jacinda took over and dry-butt-shafted them. A National Party with a Green thumb should do well.

[AllanB]

Wot? Like National under Muldoon did?

I was thinking the other day. Of all the governments etc I've been through my adult life what/who/which has made any memorial difference?

I came up with:

Muldoon - think big projects. Regardless of wage freezes, union bans etc where would we be now if those hydro dams had not been built (in a fucking environment court still probably).

David Lange - nuclear free. GST.

Key - for being the PM one could relate to the most (despite being a multi millionaire).


That's it.

[eldog]

Each year the Government runs a deficit it drives public debt up further, and that comes at a cost.
For instance, at the moment financing debt costs taxpayers about $4 billion a year, expected to rise close to $5 billion by 2018.

i have deleted various graphs from post, but would be interesting to see actual GDP, overseas exchange rate, $exported and imported over the same time

if I have read the graph right debt vs GDP has been slowly reducing even though corporate tax rate has reduce, is this because we are exporting/making more goods?

[Ocean1]

Wot? Like National under Muldoon did? I think that was worse, there was concern they couldn't even pay the overseas embassies.

I'm old so maybe I harbour less illusions/delusions. Remember that whoever you vote for, you are voting for a politician. Politicians tell you what they think you want to hear but they will do what they want. Don't expect too much, that way lies disappointment.

Having said that, you should vote. There are people in the world who don't have that opportunity.

Exactly like Muldoon did. The only difference is his profligacy in the face of a recession produced something tangible. Worth nowhere near what he'd spent, true, but as you know we had no luck whatsoever with most of the think big projects. And hardly surprising anyway, any servant of history of such advanced vintage as yourself will recognise that governments are no better at spending other people's money than anyone else that didn't earn it. To say the very least.

There was never even the slightest chance, however of Labour's "investments", (from the luxury of a decade of record income) producing even those paltry returns.

And like anyone as old as you if you're at all a quick learner you should expect those that work hard to be taxed on more of their earnings than they were before an election.

Uncle Addison is certainly under no illusions to the contrary..... https://www.theguardian.com/money/20...x.jobsandmoney

[pete376403]

Muldoon blew the best chance NZ had of ever being able to pay its way. The Lange Labour govt superannuation scheme had massive potential. Muldoon could see it too, and the best he could offer, to get National back in, was to tout "non contributory (ha!) superannuation. And look where that's got us.
Kiwisaver is starting to get there again, but how much better off would the country be if it had the benefit of an extra 27 years of superannuation saving?

Of course the polies still have an entirely seperate, contributory super scheme - they aren't going to struggle.

[pritch]

[QUOTE=AllanB;1131063223

Muldoon - think big projects. where would we be now if those hydro dams had not been built (in a fucking environment court still probably).

[/QUOTE]

I don't remember any hydro schemes in think big, you'll have to remind me? I do remember some energy projects including a synthetic petrol plant that cost 17 Billion and then the Govt virtually paid someone to take it off their hands. What's left of that project is now Canadian owned and produces methanol which is shipped overseas and the profits go to Canada. The synthetic fuel facility was cut up and sold for scrap. Just as well the world isn't going to run out of oil at any stage.

The other "think big" methanol plant is also now owned by the same Canadian company.