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Thread: The 2017 Election Thread

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    All these evel tax cuts the greens and greens lite are so rabidly against. Nobody seems to have mentioned the effect creeping tax increases due to inflation have had, bumping more and more income into higher brackets. I wonder what current taxation is, in real terms compared to when the current tax rates were last set.

    National lowered rates some time ago for exactly that reason, and even then I believe they were still well above the real rates they claimed to be corrected from. Without such a correction we'd eventually all be effectively paying more or less the premium rate. It does seem increasingly the case that they're taxing middle income NZ simply to give pretty much the same amount back to them in the form of subsidies. Why not simply let them keep it?
    When the govt have collect this tax (be it fair and justified or not) one thing it means is that they have a big chunk of money to do something (hopefully) good with. When the same money is spread out over a couple of million taxpayers, it's never going to be able to be used in that way. $25 per week to me is handy, but its not going to fund education or the health service in any meaningful way. The same $25 per week x a couple of million taxpayers and there's a possibility* of doing something useful.


    *remote, but you can only hope
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by pete376403 View Post
    When the govt have collect this tax (be it fair and justified or not) one thing it means is that they have a big chunk of money to do something (hopefully) good with. When the same money is spread out over a couple of million taxpayers, it's never going to be able to be used in that way. $25 per week to me is handy, but its not going to fund education or the health service in any meaningful way. The same $25 per week x a couple of million taxpayers and there's a possibility* of doing something useful.


    *remote, but you can only hope
    Aye. But those subsidies I mentioned certainly don't represent meaningful health or education infrastructure spending.

    I think many people would be far happier if that were the case, because not only does it benefit everyone impartially but it improves productivity across the board.

    On health, btw, I see a general belief that health spending is down, (driven, driven partly by industry advocates winding up the usual media echo chambers). In fact it's grown dramatically aver the last decade or more. Doesn't seem to slow the hyperbolic invective surrounding the claims, though.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    It does seem increasingly the case that they're taxing middle income NZ simply to give pretty much the same amount back to them in the form of subsidies. Why not simply let them keep it?
    Even if the same money was given back to the taxpayer, the goal is to keep the shiney-arsed retards employed in gubbinment departments. Bureaucracy needs food to survive...
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    Even if the same money was given back to the taxpayer, the goal is to keep the shiney-arsed retards employed in gubbinment departments. Bureaucracy needs food to survive...
    I remember years ago reading what the effective value of a govt spent dollar was. Unfortunately I can't remember what it was but it was a tiny portion of the original tax dollar.

    There's plenty of evidence to suggest that any monopoly whatsoever will eventually provide less value than their missing competition would, no matter how well intentioned. I'm not sure shuffling the top office around every couple of years mitigates that effect wrt the value govt provides taxpayers.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    I'm not sure shuffling the top office around every couple of years mitigates that effect wrt the value govt provides taxpayers.
    The worst examples are when they "rebrand" themselves.
    Attempting to shake off public impressions of their incompetence (ineptitude, gross over expenditure, etc) by:
    1: Hiring grossly overpaid consultants.
    2: Getting a report from said consultants which confirms the public opinion.
    3: Second set of consultants hired on the pretext of "eliminating bias". These consultants are even more expensive than the first since they know what the first lot were paid.
    4: Second report delivered and ignored entirely.
    5: Marketing team (consultants, obviously) commissioned to deliver "new, vibrant, customer-engaging marketing interface".
    6: New logo delivered (a coloured squiggly line with flowery-bits) and loads of tripe about artistic merit is presented.
    7: CEO falls in love with this and approves massive expenditure on new letterheads, stationary and E-commerce plans.
    8: The Board award the CEO and themselves substantial bonuses for this outstanding achievement.
    9: Staff are shown this new plan, requiring restructuring and "new roles" that staff need to apply for or accept redundancy.

    (If this was a private company)
    10: Company goes bankrupt.
    TOP QUOTE: “The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.”

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swoop View Post
    The worst examples are when they "rebrand" themselves.
    +1 to all of that, been through it at least three times at work.

    Kind of begs a wider question... CEO? Board? Corporate structures aren't the only way to get things done. Alternatives anyone?

    Also (double subject, apologies) a while back someone pointed out National's litany of failures to sort out tough problems. True, but I reckon if Labour had been in, it'd have been the same. National or Labour, Labour or National... equally incapable of taking a hit in the here and now for the sake of safeguarding the future.

    The last time we had a government with balls and principles, it was David Lange telling the Americans not to bring nukes around... how long ago was that?

  7. #82
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    I've seen that a few times. Not always the full 1 to 9, but once there were three new names within a few months, each with new letterheads etc. When they settled on a name the office had to be redecorated to fit the new national colour scheme. (That's national with a small n.) Plus a shiny new website to match the decor. I'd hate to think what that all cost.

    Big companies can do stuff like that too, but they have shareholders who tend to get antsy if they see profligate spending because that can effect their payout.
    There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    I've seen that a few times. Not always the full 1 to 9, but once there were three new names within a few months, each with new letterheads etc. When they settled on a name the office had to be redecorated to fit the new national colour scheme. (That's national with a small n.) Plus a shiny new website to match the decor. I'd hate to think what that all cost.

    Big companies can do stuff like that too, but they have shareholders who tend to get antsy if they see profligate spending because that can effect their payout.
    It is a problem. Any time you get a new CEO he's there because he managed to convince the board he could improve performance. He can't possibly be seen to be doing that unless he makes changes. The problem is: he's new. Sometimes new to the industry, but at the very least new to a large organisation with a huge number of variables affecting performance. He's there because he's confident, (see Dunning Kruger effect) but in fact almost always knows nowhere near enough about the organisation, it's systems or it's staff to have any chance whatsoever of improving anything.

    So it comes as no surprise to the senior professionals on site when the usual chair shuffling produces little sensible change. Quiet achievers overlooked in favour of other loud, confident scrubs that often know their business only a little better than the new boss. Budgets shuffled to fit preconceived, simplistic ideas about funding...

    Needless to say the result of the above isn't any sort of improvement at all, in spite of any heavily spun numbers the board may be presented with, in fact the staff get more disenfranchised and disillusioned with every cycle.

    Her indoors has been asked to reapply for either exactly her own job or one very similar 5 times in the last 8 years. She's senior enough, experienced and qualified enough that she won't likely be the one left without a chair, but she's mortally sick of the game, and has lost most of the enjoyment she once had in her job as a result. And having socialised with almost all of the top managers and senior staff in that organisation I can say that the rest of them feel exactly the same.

    And the worst bit is that the most common change these geniuses make, copying better performing organisations / branches should actually work, but it almost never does. In fact the above organisation was one of the top performers in the country a few years ago, but all those "improvements" have done a fair bit of damage.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    It is a problem. Any time you get a new CEO he's there because he managed to convince the board he could improve performance. He can't possibly be seen to be doing that unless he makes changes. The problem is: he's new. Sometimes new to the industry, but at the very least new to a large organisation with a huge number of variables affecting performance. He's there because he's confident, (see Dunning Kruger effect) but in fact almost always knows nowhere near enough about the organisation, it's systems or it's staff to have any chance whatsoever of improving anything.

    So it comes as no surprise to the senior professionals on site when the usual chair shuffling produces little sensible change. Quiet achievers overlooked in favour of other loud, confident scrubs that often know their business only a little better than the new boss. Budgets shuffled to fit preconceived, simplistic ideas about funding...

    Needless to say the result of the above isn't any sort of improvement at all, in spite of any heavily spun numbers the board may be presented with, in fact the staff get more disenfranchised and disillusioned with every cycle.

    Her indoors has been asked to reapply for either exactly her own job or one very similar 5 times in the last 8 years. She's senior enough, experienced and qualified enough that she won't likely be the one left without a chair, but she's mortally sick of the game, and has lost most of the enjoyment she once had in her job as a result. And having socialised with almost all of the top managers and senior staff in that organisation I can say that the rest of them feel exactly the same.

    And the worst bit is that the most common change these geniuses make, copying better performing organisations / branches should actually work, but it almost never does. In fact the above organisation was one of the top performers in the country a few years ago, but all those "improvements" have done a fair bit of damage.
    Sounds like rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic I bet there is the usual round of buzzwords thrown about to grease the wheels of change as it goes!

    If they don't know where they are going - how will they ever know when they get there! Meaningless change by meaningless "leaders"???

    There is a lot of that about in NZ! Unfortunately!

  10. #85
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    I'm picking National will stay in power, Labour losing seats and the rise of the minor parties.

    Winston as Kingmaker Yeah Right, he's had his day.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    I'm picking National will stay in power, Labour losing seats and the rise of the minor parties.

    Winston as Kingmaker Yeah Right, he's had his day.
    I'm picking that I don't want to pick it....In theory it's English's election to lose - and he's managed that before.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumph View Post
    I'm picking that I don't want to pick it....In theory it's English's election to lose - and he's managed that before.
    " Bill...step away from the Social Media Camera....we don't want to know about Jog/walks or 1960's Pizza's your Mother used to make with tinned spagg."

    Greens are busy digging a hole with" Honesty is not the best policy", Winston will wave the immigration flag.....and Andrew Little....

    You could get people voting for Gareth just for the disruption effect....that would be a cat astrophe.

    My "get off your arse and get a trade" policies are working at home.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    My "get off your arse and get a trade" policies are working at home.
    Love it. How else are they going to afford to keep you in the style to which you've been accustomed?
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ocean1 View Post
    Love it. How else are they going to afford to keep you in the style to which you've been accustomed?


    Left to their own devices* and their millennial mates would probably have racked up 30K of Student Loans and then quit the

    course as not fulfilling or meaningful enough for them ( true story)

    There are a lot of pandering parents out there.

    Want a car..I'll buy you a $1500 shitter and pay for your licence after that..save up for it.

    Want to stay at my place after 18 , $100 a week....but your on dishes.

    Kiwisaver....put the 8% in and go high risk while you are young

    I said to my Sons, get a trade, takes 4 years and if you really want to go back and work at Barkers for $15.00 an hour selling

    clothes do it....won't happen as $26 to $30 an hour beats whistles and bells any day.

    Universities are business's running courses and a lot of those jobs are going to be done by Watson and his mates.

    I'm under no illusions of them assisting me in my old age.

    * pun
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voltaire View Post
    I said to my Sons....
    You're one of those boomer pricks, aincha? Took all the free education and home loans etc and slammed the door in the kid's faces.

    Me too. Mine were told the day they left school was the day they started paying rent, one way or another.

    Didn't make for 100% diligent wee paragons of virtue, but at least they know what direction the goalposts are in and they're progressing in the general direction.
    Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon

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