The 2017 Election Thread

[AllanB]

The Clyde Dam springs to mind.

Some of those Southern Dams are impressive buildings - thinking of one of the Waitaki ones, way before Sir Rob, in the 30's I think. It's quite a stunning building.


There are people who believe the Clyde Dam is build on fault lines or similar and is a ticking time bomb.

[Laava]

I don't remember any hydro schemes in think big, you'll have to remind me? I do remember some energy projects including a synthetic petrol plant that cost 17 Billion and then the Govt virtually paid someone to take it off their hands. What's left of that project is now Canadian owned and produces methanol which is shipped overseas and the profits go to Canada. The synthetic fuel facility was cut up and sold for scrap. Just as well the world isn't going to run out of oil at any stage.

The other "think big" methanol plant is also now owned by the same Canadian company.

Don't forget Marsden B power station...

[husaberg]

i have deleted various graphs from post, but would be interesting to see actual GDP, overseas exchange rate, $exported and imported over the same time

if I have read the graph right debt vs GDP has been slowly reducing even though corporate tax rate has reduce, is this because we are exporting/making more goods?

All GDP figure are estimates the source of the graphs figures are from NZ teasury.
Plus no you haven't read the graph correctly the GDP to Debt level has climbed significantly under National. Its doubled.

[Maha]

Don't forget Marsden B power station...

Which is now in India, I remember it being dismantled over a few visits to our Wai Whare at Ruakaka.

[Laava]

Which is now in India, I remember it being dismantled over a few visits to our Wai Whare at Ruakaka.

Yep, I imagine it will be belching out smoke somewhere, fuelled by pig coal, old tyres and widows(alive or dead).

[eldog]

All GDP figure are estimates the source of the graphs figures are from NZ teasury.
Plus no you haven't read the graph correctly the GDP to Debt level has climbed significantly under National. Its doubled.

Do you have a more upto date graph it stops at 2014
i only noticed its starting to be reduced in the latest years what happened in the missing years

[FJRider]

I don't remember any hydro schemes in think big, you'll have to remind me? I do remember some energy projects including a synthetic petrol plant that cost 17 Billion and then the Govt virtually paid someone to take it off their hands. What's left of that project is now Canadian owned and produces methanol which is shipped overseas and the profits go to Canada. The synthetic fuel facility was cut up and sold for scrap. Just as well the world isn't going to run out of oil at any stage.

The other "think big" methanol plant is also now owned by the same Canadian company.

Think big schemes included ...

methanol plant at Waitara

ammonia/urea plant at Kapuni

synthetic-petrol plant at Motunui

expansion of the Marsden Point Oil Refinery

expansion of the New Zealand Steel plant at Glenbrook

electrification of the North Island Main Trunk Railway between Te Rapa and Palmerston North

a third reduction line at the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter, near Bluff

the Clyde Dam on the Clutha River.

[eldog]

Think big schemes included ...

methanol plant at Waitara

ammonia/urea plant at Kapuni

synthetic-petrol plant at Motunui

expansion of the Marsden Point Oil Refinery

expansion of the New Zealand Steel plant at Glenbrook - made parts for this

electrification of the North Island Main Trunk Railway between Te Rapa and Palmerston North - made parts for this

a third reduction line at the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter, near Bluff

the Clyde Dam on the Clutha River.- made parts for earthworks

i was involved in a few, on a small scale see above.

[husaberg]

Do you have a more upto date graph it stops at 2014
i only noticed its starting to be reduced in the latest years what happened in the missing years

Talk to NZ teasury.

9 years in govermnent and they doubbled the debt to GDP and then achived a tiny forcast in reduction of 1 percent.againt a rise of 20% in the years since they took power thats what you concentrate on................
rather than the massive borrowing............

[oldrider]

Saw this and thought it topical not just for America but NZ too as we seem to have disappointingly parallel electoral results here!

Focus on the Fed! by Tony B
(henrymakow.com)

All the billions of words about Trump are meaningless. Unless and until people are willing to actually think, which means getting outside of the box created by the world owner criminals to corrupt their brains, there will only be more confusion.

To understand the U.S. political situation people must be willing to understand that AMERICANS DO NOT VOTE FOR THE PRESIDENT, nor for many other high offices when not convenient to our owners. At least one of these arrogant bastards, several decades ago make the unguarded, because true, statement: "AMERICANS ARE TOO STUPID TO ELECT THE PRESIDENT, WE DECIDE WHO WILL BE PRESIDENT." Until you face this simple fact you cannot understand politics because you are forever searching for what exactly it was that got this person the vote and not that person.

Note carefully the following: IN THIS COUNTRY (and undoubtedly most others) THE PARTIES ARE NOW OWNED OUTRIGHT BY THE ROTHSCHILD CABAL SEATED IN ITS CITY OF LONDON. NO ONE CAN BE NAMED ON A BALLOT WHOM THEY DO NOT OWN. ALL "VIABLE" CANDIDATES ARE THEIR PROSTITUTES. ALL, NO EXCEPTIONS. Is everyone too brain dead to see that no matter who is put in what office the direction of the politics NEVER CHANGES?

It is no minor detail that Hillary had been promised this office by that cabal for decades. Have all forgotten that early on in the last election this woman, who could not fill a small room with supporters, was being handed a fake "landslide" victory? The lying media was handing her states almost before the voting began.

As opposition to her, the tactic decided upon, and publically acknowledged, had been someone who would spout "right wing fanaticisms" as, believing their own deceitful lies or else their success in selling them, the people would surely be turned off by this noise. It should be obvious how that succeeded from the huge audiences Trump attracted while Hillary had to resort to depraved but highly promoted entertainment to fill a room.

Then there was an odd election day happening. Someone or some group, real unsung heroes in some ways, began dumping to the public extremely damaging information about Hillary and Co. involvement in child trafficking, child sex, child sacrifice to the devil. ALL VERY TRUE.

This leading UP THE LADDER OF WORLD CONTROL, not down it. To an extend that the cabal, the central promoter of this satanic hell, realized they may all shortly be hanging from lamp posts in their various nations if they did not stem the exposures which they had to know concerned their No 1 satanic choice as president. The were actually forced to change their choice, a first since they grabbed power.

THEN THERE WAS A SUDDEN REVERSAL OF THE MEDIA "VOTE COVERAGE" and those states so happily handed to Hillary were grudgingly pulled back and became "not sure" and finally given to Trump.

So what actually happened? Did the people vote for Trump? Well, maybe but that doesn't matter at all. WHAT MATTERS IS THAT THE CABAL FELT FORCED TO DUMP THEIR CHOICE AND PUT IN THEIR SECOND STRING PROSTITUTE.

So what is all the constant blather about? True, from the campaign fanatical flight to Trump of the populous and flight from Hillary, Trump likely was the intended choice of probably 95% of the voters. But does it matter? HE IS OWNED BY THE SAME CABAL THAT OWNS HILLARY, ET AL. HE WILL DO AS HE IS TOLD. UNTIL THE CABAL IS ELIMINATED NOTHING WILL CHANGE FOR THE BETTER. PERIOD.

Why waste time, energy and resources on a president, any president, who will never be YOUR CHOICE unless you work to get rid of the Rothschild cabal. The number one requirement for this to happen is TO FORCE YOUR GOVERNMENT TO CREATE AND CIRCULATE REAL MONEY AS THE NATION'S MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE INSTEAD OF THE INSANE BORROWING OF NON-EXISTENT "CREDIT" FROM THE ROTHSCHILD FRANCHISES SUCH AS THE FEDERAL RESERVE, the real seat of the satanic power of this cabal..

[pritch]

Think big schemes included ...

ammonia/urea plant at Kapuni

That seems to be still working as intended. Sometimes I ride past there if the weather's nice. Which means I haven't been that way in some considerable time.

[Ocean1]

Do you have a more upto date graph it stops at 2014
i only noticed its starting to be reduced in the latest years what happened in the missing years

Treasury publish historic data well late, later GDP/Sovereign debt data will be findable though....
https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zea...nt-debt-to-gdp
https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zea...ernment-budget

From memory National are projecting to balance the books about 2021, Labour will tax more but spend more than they tax for longer, so hope to achieve that at some later stage. But neither of them have enough control over the biggest variables affecting that to make predictions with any great confidence.

This is mostly good news: https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/forecast

This in particular doesn't agree with all the whining: https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/wages or the apparent need to significantly boost "redistributive" social spending.

This don't look so flash, and surprised me: https://tradingeconomics.com/new-zea...ivity/forecast

May be something in this lot too: https://www.rbnz.govt.nz/statistics/key-graphs

[Ocean1]

9 years in govermnent and they doubbled the debt to GDP and then achived a tiny forcast in reduction of 1 percent.againt a rise of 20% in the years since they took power thats what you concentrate on................
rather than the massive borrowing............

So if you wanted to get some idea of how badly they've done since the global financial crisis you'd be interested in comparisons like this, no?:

[eldog]

So if you wanted to get some idea of how badly they've done since the global financial crisis you'd be interested in comparisons like this, no?:

How are they coping in Japan? Do they have a strategy. Maybe not the same social benefits like NZ

Seem to remember a whole lot of statistics sank an incumbent party one election a few years back

Just find the right graph and leave out what you don't need. It's on the web it must be true. Yes Minister

[Ocean1]

How are they coping in Japan? Do they have a strategy. Maybe not the same social benefits like NZ

Seem to remember a whole lot of statistics sank an incumbent party one election a few years back

Yes, the problem's not going away, politically it's a fucking mess, there's not a lot they can do about it without all hell breaking loose. Also, it's not as bad as it looks, a lot of their debt is internal, they have a weird banking system and it's in the central bank's interest not to get too heavy handed with the commercial banks. Even to the extent of charging them "negative interest".

I don't think there's much shortage of money, just public money, and in fact Japan is owed a lot more than they owe.

There's a bunch cultural issues going on there that I don't understand too, there's a huge disinclination to either pay more tax or reduce public services.

Edit, I found this: I like it!


Let's say you are a parent with three kids. You want your kids to do their chores, clean up after themselves, and contribute to the common good of your household. You decide to print up small paper squares with a picture of your face on them and since your name is Bill you call them "Bills"

You offer to pay your kids Bills when they do things you want. One Bill to unload the dishwasher, two Bills for walking the dog, five Bills to mow the lawn. You announce your plan to the kids and they look at you like you're nuts. "Why would we care about these pieces of paper with your face on them?" they ask. That's when you inform them about the second part of the plan. Every week they have to give you ten Bills to cover their room and board. No Bills means no food and they have to sleep in the backyard. Your children enthusiastically agree to the new system.

This is how modern monetary systems work. You (Japan) spend Bills (yen) by giving it to your kids (private sector) and you demand payment (taxes) from them all and if they don't pay you punish them (jail).
You are a prudent parent so each week you decide to spend 30 Bills getting work out of your kids and you ask for payment of 30 Bills each week, you have a balanced budget.

But after a few weeks your children notice something, earning and spending 10 Bills a week is a bit constraining. Some weeks they are busy and earning 10 Bills is hard, some weeks they have extra time and they end up sitting around when they could be earning Bills. They ask you if you'd consider spending some extra Bills so they can save a few. So the next week you pay your kids for 40 Bills worth of work, you take back their required 30 Bills at the end but the kids now have 10 Bills between them. This is deficit spending. You (Japan) have spent more Bills (Yen) than you took back (taxed) and you have run a 10 Bill deficit. Notice that the deficit is exactly equal to the amount the kids (private sector) have saved.

The kids now begin to trade these 10 Bills back and forth. Bobby does Suzy's chores on Monday and she gives him 2 of her saved Bills. Jimmy goofs off and only has 9 Bills at the end of the week so he borrows 1 Bill from Bobby and promises to pay it back the following week. Having 10 Bills floating around makes it a lot easier for the kids to trade with each other, back in the old days they have no Bills left over each week which they could exchange with each other. The kids ask you if they can save any more Bills and you agree.

The following week you spend another 40 Bills on child labor and only take 30 out at the end of the week. The deficit is 10 Bills and the cumulative deficit is 20 Bills. The net savings of your kids is 20 Bills. The sum of all the deficits you have run (National Debt) is exactly equal to the savings of your kids (private sector).
As long as your kids want to save more you can continue to run deficits to fund them. You could give them 60 Bills (200% GDP) to save between them if they really wanted it.
What happens if you become more "financially responsible" and decide to cut your debt? You must spend less than you tax to do this, let's say you decide to spend 30 Bills and tax 33 Bills this week. Turns out Jimmy, that little spendthrift has no savings and he only has 10 Bills worth of chores. He's desperate to earn that extra Bill he needs. Bobby and Suzy are happy with their amount of saved Bills so Jimmy is in trouble. He offers to do some work for Bobby to get that precious extra Bill, he asks you if he can do Suzy's chores for fewer Bills. Your new budget where you tax more than you spend (a surplus) has led to a negative effect (deflation).

You are smart enough to reason this out ahead of time so you never go ahead with your foolish surplus plan. Instead you decide that maybe this chore system is a way to get lots of extra work out of the kids. So instead you decide to spend 60 Bills and tax only 30 Bills (a big deficit). Your kids do their normal workload, 30 Bills worth of work. Bobby and Suzy are pretty busy and satisfied with their current amount of savings so they just pass on the extra offer of work for Bills. Jimmy has finally gotten his financial house in order and wants to save a bit. But Jimmy doesn't really want to save 30 Bills, he offers to take the money but he's only going to do half the work for it. Your large deficit spending has led to a different negative effect (inflation).

So to sum it up you (Japan) can spend more than you require your kids (private sector) to pay back (taxes) and build up a cumulative deficit (debt). Your total cumulative deficit (debt) is exactly equal to the savings of kids (private sector). If your deficit/debt is too high you cause inflation, if it's too low you cause deflation. The right size is dictated by the savings desire of the holders of your currency.

The most interesting implication of this is that deficits are good and necessary as long as they are appropriately sized. Large ones could cause inflation. If the private sector has more savings than they need and choose to spend excess savings, if economic output is at capacity and the government continues to spend prices go up. Conversely balanced government budgets or surpluses cause deflation and economic harm.

The United States has had six economic depressions and six periods of extended government surpluses. In every case the surpluses occurred immediately prior to the depression. The 7th period of surpluses ended in 2001, how did the next couple decades work out?

Another implication is that government spending must necessarily occur before government taxation and government borrowing. The government does not borrow money in order to spend. On day one there are no Bills in circulation for you as the parent to borrow. You spend first and then tax second. If there are extra Bills you can let them sit in paper form or if you are so obliged you can let your kids deposit them with you in an interest bearing form (government borrowing). But in either case spending comes first, there is no reason for the government to ever worry about borrowing the dollars it needs to spend.