The 2017 Election Thread

[pritch]

22 cents a litre tax increase on petrol, & a 70kmh limit on the open road. You cunts still happy you voted Labour?
Broken promises much?

A 70 kph limit? If you're going to worry about something at least worry about something realistic. Another point of view might be that National have ignored Auckland's infrastructure problems for so long that eventually somebody had to do something.

Last I read the southern motorway is still a parking lot. You going to blame that on the current govenment too?

[Ocean1]

As is the way it always should be.

Ah right, so less investment could lead to some sort of 'housing crisis', well it's a great thing that could never happen now right

That was the 2% bit of the arithmetic describing it rather well I thought. What fucking reality are you living in? housing affordability is driven by mortgage repayments, which is driven primarily by the price, interest rate is still a big factor, but it is a secondary one.

There are none available for the price my dad paid; do try and keep up with the conversation will you.

Minding one's own knitting is always sound policy.

Obviously.

Actually affordability is driven by the buyer's decision to accept the total ongoing costs. There's a bunch of whiney arsed pricks that figure that choice shouldn't be available to them. See the knitting thing.

Aye, we've spent the last couple of decades convincing ourselves that houses your dad paid for were beneath us, that we deserved better. Welcome to the real world.

[Ocean1]

Point to the posts where you wee outraged about National raising GST then?

Also Congratulations ocean you just invented a whole new form of economics where a heathy supply of goods does not limit the increase in value or lower the value of said commodity.
Because without the competition from the investors in the Auckland housing market driving up prices, some of thosee renter plebs would have been able to afford to buy said houses rather than rent from proprty investors.
Sorry Ocean everyone in the world cant make a living selling mcdonalds burgers to each other one day and buying it the next.
Which is the zenth of the right wing free market economy.

Why would I bother?

Where did I suggest supply doesn't affect price?

I think your ideas about what a free market economy is could focus more effectively on things other than exchanging hamburgers.

[husaberg]

Why would I bother?

Where did I suggest supply doesn't affect price?
.

Because you are the one who said any increase in tax results in a decrease in investment

Yet what you meant was any increase by labour in your mind is bad.

"More houses on the market aren't actually the same thing as more houses, dude." Ocean1

What i plainly suggested was less short term property investors (ie speculators)as result of the introduction of a CGT actually leads to more people being able to afford to buy properties rather having to rent them as the tax free incentive stops people buying houses as short term investments.
Less short term property investors in the market lowers the housing price, Plus property investors seeking to exit the market creates a surplus which lowers the price. The CGT is a win for new entrants to the Auckland housing markets.
the Auckland Housing problem is mainly a problem of lack of affordable houses.
Speculators would be better served building "spec" houses to alieviate the shortage of housing rather than trying to tie up the already available housing in the market to rent out.

I think your ideas about what a free market economy is could focus more effectively on things other than exchanging hamburgers.

Maybe when the urbanisation phase of the free market economy is complete your great great grandchildren can aspire to building the burners for the grills Ocean but bare in mind they still end up flipping burgers to be able to afford to eat. As they will be driven out by economies of scale as that will out sourced overseas.....

[Graystone]

Minding one's own knitting is always sound policy.

Obviously.

Actually affordability is driven by the buyer's decision to accept the total ongoing costs. There's a bunch of whiney arsed pricks that figure that choice shouldn't be available to them. See the knitting thing.

Aye, we've spent the last couple of decades convincing ourselves that houses your dad paid for were beneath us, that we deserved better. Welcome to the real world.

Sounds more like there's a bunch of whiny arsed pricks getting up in arms about their gravy train being threatened. Bottom line is profits should be taxed, that's how taxes work, lets close that property speculation/investment loophole eh!

The fuck you on about? The house my dad bought is still there (which is pretty nice for him otherwise he'd get a bit wet some nights), it's just worth 4x what he paid for it, and it sure as shit hasn't gotten any fancier.

[TheDemonLord]

Compare the size of the attached land.
Compare the minimum size you are allowed to build under most covenants.
Compare the cost of the land.
They do not scale well with the mean number of years income required to purchase a house.

There's not a perfect scale I grant you, but I'll use myself as an example - My first house is a 4 bedroom house, Talking with my parents and others of their generation - their first house was typically a 2 bedroom, specifically to allow them to get a foot on the property ladder and to start building up Equity as opposed to renting.

A 2 bedroom house (when I bought and depending on area) were around the $2-300k mark - which is within there acceptable value to earning ratio. My house was mid $4's.

There are many other factors at work - I've heard from those in-trade that building smaller houses is not profitable - I'd hazard a guess that is in part due to buyer preference (Kiwis like big houses) and also the fixed costs of compliance.

I'm looking at the difficulty of crossing the divide between 'fat cat investors' and 'unseemly selves' as you put it. I get that you can still own a house by making the 'right choices', but the number of 'right choices' has plummeted since baby boomers, certianly in part due to property investors/speculation.

But you agree, there still exists the possibility, with the right personal choices, to own a house.

As an example - a friend of mine was on some first home buyers show a while back - his solution was to buy a house with his Siblings and effectively flat together - only they are paying a mortgage instead of Rent.

Perhaps the unwillingness of some to make those choices indicate that they aren't ready for home ownership yet.

Perhaps I'd have a bit more sympathy if I hadn't done it myself - and I can assure you, sacrifices had to be made.

Perhaps if we didn't have a generation that demands that everyone else should fix their problems, without considering the possibility that they have had a part to play in creating the problem in the first place.

As I get older, the more I see this tendancy to blame others first and to abdicate all responsibility for a situation.

I believe it was Aesop who first put forward "The gods help those who help themselves"

[husaberg]

There's not a perfect scale I grant you, but I'll use myself as an example - My first house is a 4 bedroom house, Talking with my parents and others of their generation - their first house was typically a 2 bedroom, specifically to allow them to get a foot on the property ladder and to start building up Equity as opposed to renting.

A 2 bedroom house (when I bought and depending on area) were around the $2-300k mark - which is within there acceptable value to earning ratio. My house was mid $4's.

There are many other factors at work - I've heard from those in-trade that building smaller houses is not profitable - I'd hazard a guess that is in part due to buyer preference (Kiwis like big houses) and also the fixed costs of compliance.



But you agree, there still exists the possibility, with the right personal choices, to own a house.

As an example - a friend of mine was on some first home buyers show a while back - his solution was to buy a house with his Siblings and effectively flat together - only they are paying a mortgage instead of Rent.

Perhaps the unwillingness of some to make those choices indicate that they aren't ready for home ownership yet.

Perhaps I'd have a bit more sympathy if I hadn't done it myself - and I can assure you, sacrifices had to be made.

Perhaps if we didn't have a generation that demands that everyone else should fix their problems, without considering the possibility that they have had a part to play in creating the problem in the first place.

As I get older, the more I see this tendancy to blame others first and to abdicate all responsibility for a situation.

I believe it was Aesop who first put forward "The gods help those who help themselves"

We went without to achieve ownership in my mid twenties. We looked hard sought good advice found a place with potential that would pay its own way (ie farm)brought cheap ie shit house and run down property and spend all our time and money paying off debt and doing it up with hard work , all out of cashflow.
We had 38% deposit on our first farm. Which we were able to translate into mny the equity based on improvements and land price 6 years later.
We then brought our second much larger farm again at about 38% equity. We repeated the process again the same
All though the process both myself and my lady worked full time off farm until the kids arrived. I forgoed the bikes and the flash cars drinking takaways we chose to have kids instead I worked on av 50-60 hours a week off farm. Then about the same on farm. there is no way i could maintain that schedule now i am older with kids so it has to be done when you are young.

While Its harder now but not impossible just as it was harder for me than it was for my parents. In my case we had no handouts only hand me downs.
A young fella i worked with recently brought his house at 21, hes not on huge money but he rents the other two rooms to his mates to pay for his morgage. I wish i had thought of that.
The smartest piece of advice i ever got was from a very sucessful farmer who was former rural banker, which was never borrow money on floating interest as you can not long term budget if you don't know what your payments will be in a years time. its simple but clever.

[sidecar bob]

A 70 kph limit? If you're going to worry about something at least worry about something realistic. Another point of view might be that National have ignored Auckland's infrastructure problems for so long that eventually somebody had to do something.

Last I read the southern motorway is still a parking lot. You going to blame that on the current govenment too?

I would have been chuffed to do 70kmh on the motorway last Thursday. I blame the congestion on too many people alone in cars & not enough on small motorcycles. If the govt gave people a huge incentive to get on motorcycles, they could save hundreds of millions on roading infrastructure.

[sidecar bob]

We went without to achieve ownership in my mid twenties. We looked hard sought good advice found a place with potential that would pay its own way (ie farm)brought cheap ie shit house and run down property and spend all our time and money paying off debt and doing it up with hard work , all out of cashflow.
We had 38% deposit on our first farm. Which we were able to translate into mny the equity based on improvements and land price 6 years later.
We then brought our second much larger farm again at about 38% equity. We repeated the process again the same
All though the process both myself and my lady worked full time off farm until the kids arrived. I forgoed the bikes and the flash cars drinking takaways we chose to have kids instead I worked on av 50-60 hours a week off farm. Then about the same on farm. there is no way i could maintain that schedule now i am older with kids so it has to be done when you are young.

While Its harder now but not impossible just as it was harder for me than it was for my parents. In my case we had no handouts only hand me downs.
A young fella i worked with recently brought his house at 21, hes not on huge money but he rents the other two rooms to his mates to pay for his morgage. I wish i had thought of that.
The smartest piece of advice i ever got was from a very sucessful farmer who was former rural banker, which was never borrow money on floating interest as you can not long term budget if you don't know what your payments will be in a years time. its simple but clever.

So essentially you busted your arse & scrimped & saved & made sacrifices & been smart. Are you really happy that the govt takes a slice when you sell it & give it to a someone that's done fuck all of any of that?

[husaberg]

So essentially you busted your arse & scrimped & saved & made sacrifices & been smart. Are you really happy that the govt takes a slice when you sell it & give it to a someone that's done fuck all of any of that?

Plus a lot of luck. farm values have dived since here if someone had continued that sudden increase in equity would have been eroded, Note I wouldn't have had to pay CGT anyway it if it was reinvested in your business. go back a few pages and what’s there.....

As for Capital Gains Tax well boohoo its profit, if its turned over in the short term its clearly income. Thus it should be taxed.
The last farm I sold I made a Capital gain of 50% in 15 months, yet I paid no tax on the income, its loophole that needs tightening.

People don’t actually going farming for the money bob, they go farming because they love it. The challange of it
They get bigger because it the only way to maintain an acceptable level of profit as land prices increase and thus profit margins get squeezed
In the last 8 years if you look most farmers are borrowing money against equity to pay themselves a living wage.

[jasonu]

Plus a lot of luck. farm values have dived since here if someone had continued that sudden increase in equity would have been eroded, Note I wouldn't have had to pay CGT anyway it if it was reinvested in your business. go back a few pages and what’s there.....

People don’t actually going farming for the money bob, they go farming because they love it. The challange of it
They get bigger because it the only way to maintain an acceptable level of profit as land prices increase and thus profit margins get squeezed
In the last 8 years if you look most farmers are borrowing money against equity to pay themselves a living wage.

You didn’t answer bobs question.

[Graystone]

There's not a perfect scale I grant you, but I'll use myself as an example - My first house is a 4 bedroom house, Talking with my parents and others of their generation - their first house was typically a 2 bedroom, specifically to allow them to get a foot on the property ladder and to start building up Equity as opposed to renting.

A 2 bedroom house (when I bought and depending on area) were around the $2-300k mark - which is within there acceptable value to earning ratio. My house was mid $4's.

There are many other factors at work - I've heard from those in-trade that building smaller houses is not profitable - I'd hazard a guess that is in part due to buyer preference (Kiwis like big houses) and also the fixed costs of compliance.



But you agree, there still exists the possibility, with the right personal choices, to own a house.

As an example - a friend of mine was on some first home buyers show a while back - his solution was to buy a house with his Siblings and effectively flat together - only they are paying a mortgage instead of Rent.

Perhaps the unwillingness of some to make those choices indicate that they aren't ready for home ownership yet.

Perhaps I'd have a bit more sympathy if I hadn't done it myself - and I can assure you, sacrifices had to be made.

Perhaps if we didn't have a generation that demands that everyone else should fix their problems, without considering the possibility that they have had a part to play in creating the problem in the first place.

As I get older, the more I see this tendancy to blame others first and to abdicate all responsibility for a situation.

I believe it was Aesop who first put forward "The gods help those who help themselves"

I could use myself as an example too, but it's sometimes nice to think about others as well. So what was that 2-300k house going for back in ye olde times?

You still miss my point, property investment and speculation has narrowed the number of acceptable choices down significantly, as housing prices outstrip wage and house size increases. In addition to that, we made huge advances in technology over the last generation, what other industries have not seen any benefit in terms of features or price point?

Perhaps asking for a tax loophole to be closed is a way to help themselves, perhaps asking for a tax loophole to be closed is part of being a responsible member of a democracy.

Perhaps stop beating you own drum and blaming others, and instead see things from their perspective...

[TheDemonLord]

I could use myself as an example too, but it's sometimes nice to think about others as well. So what was that 2-300k house going for back in ye olde times?

I don't have solid data, but I believe around the $100-150 range, but that was back when a good income was around $40k/annum, which gives around a 3-4 years worth of salary, a $2-300k house now with a good salary (around $65k/annum) is around 4 years worth of Salary.

So whilst there has been some movement, it's not as drastic as it's being portrayed as.

You still miss my point, property investment and speculation has narrowed the number of acceptable choices down significantly, as housing prices outstrip wage and house size increases.

There is a word, in your rebuttal, that betrays your position and validates my critique:

You said 'acceptable choices' - whether the reference is in regard to houses for sale or sacrifices to be made - part of my critique is that those currently whinging have unrealistic expectations and therefore have artificially limited their 'acceptable choices'. That there are those that are prepared to reset their expectations to something realistic and able to achieve it tells me that it is not a problem with the rules of the game, but an unwillingness on the part of the individual to play it properly.

Perhaps asking for a tax loophole to be closed is a way to help themselves, perhaps asking for a tax loophole to be closed is part of being a responsible member of a democracy.

Firstly - it's not a loophole, but on this point I have two issues:

1: I don't see any clear evidence that the change will achieve the stated goal
2: I don't believe that the driver for this legislation is what is said: wanting houses for everyone. I think the underlying motivation for it, is a resentment of those who are perceived as rich land owners.

And there is quite a long and extremely bloody historical precedent in regards to hyper-left wing types feeling they are entitled to a part or the whole of what others have earned...

Perhaps stop beating you own drum and blaming others, and instead see things from their perspective...

You forget - I was in that same perspective - 26, looking to buy a house in Auckland - I've seen it and lived it first hand. I had to move further away than I wanted, I had get a Motorcycle in order to be able to afford the commute to work, I had to make drastic cuts to my expenditure as the difference between Rent and mortgage was just under double, I had fights with the Wife about changes to our lifestyle, I had to deal with banks treating me like crap and charging me fees for Africa because of high LVR and less than 20% equity.

The point here is that I did it, because I knew that in the long run, it would pay off.

There are those that are willing to do what is needed and they reap the benefits of Home ownership, then there are those that want the benefits of being a homeowner without putting the effort in.

If you think it's drum beating - fair enough - I look at more like "I did it, therefore it's possible for you to do it too"

[Crasherfromwayback]

So essentially you busted your arse & scrimped & saved & made sacrifices & been smart. Are you really happy that the govt takes a slice when you sell it & give it to a someone that's done fuck all of any of that?

Would you like to live in a country (or world for that matter) that has no welfare system?

[sidecar bob]

Would you like to live in a country (or world for that matter) that has no welfare system?

I'm not quite sure I see the connection between that & a tax that never existed in NZ until two years ago, but I'm becoming more prepared to put in an average effort & pay average taxes, but still more than the recipients of welfare.