The 2017 Election Thread

[mashman]

Tech also decreases cost of goods, while allowing a new tax source, or at least making the remaining tax sources generate more in tax. It won't kill the economy but does require risks to be managed. After all, production and consumption are still trivial to balance in a tech centric economy.

Rent is commonly available for $100, the UBI is a Basic income, you can live on it, but it greatly incentivises not doing that.

The free market handles Tech re-employment.

That's the whole point when you start messing with prices in markets first to adopt automation. The rest of the economy needs the same investment levels that it receives today. In fact it needs more in order to grow the economy. You seem to be missing the important part here... you know, where, say, a civil servants had a 60k job, 2 kids and a house and could happily service it all. Suddenly not being able to do those things, because they have just lost nearly 50k is spending power, sees that money no longer enter the economy. Where is the tax going to come from if noone can afford to buy anything because certain sectors needs todays income and growth in order to survive? What new tax sources are you talking about?

Production has to stop. You still have pollution and climate issues to deal with. That will also kill your economy. I'm not giving you a timeframe here. So stop making it out as if I am. It will slide into oblivion as each sector fights for the $ that's left in any given market, coz again, who will really be able to afford things?

The free market is like jesus trying to catch a marble. It lurches from one side to the other trying to ensure that money gets to the right place. Well, it doesn't. The number of jobs that will be created will be miniscule and will be paid peanuts. And back we go again to the discretionary income no longer existing and prices highly unlikely to fall that much to accomodate where entire industries automate and peeps lose well paid jobs blah blah ad infinitum. That's the economic chain and how things happen in todays world when you shake a pillar of the economy. Technology has massive potential when it is directed, not pushed to a place where it makes money and gives you a shinier version of yesterdays. It's a waste in any language.

You post in the link was very focused on a few specific examples with a massive amount of ambiguity in how the system would actually work, and I don't feel like being berated for not being a mind reader again so how about you reiterate its points as to how it relates to our discussion now.

There was no ambiguity in it. You would pay people for not being at their job, because you had already budgeted to do so. If you choose not to, then realise the economic consequences of individual businesses doing such a thing in a fashion that gives no consideration to their employee being someone else's customer.

A special menton

and I don't feel like being berated for not being a mind reader again

Then don't read the post like that fuckstain. Why would I need to? Other than fucking with you... which while tempting, I've already done that and it got boring real quick.

super special mention

not being a mind reader again

Thinking would help. But hey, we're moving into wanting to fuck with you territory.

[Graystone]

That's the whole point when you start messing with prices in markets first to adopt automation. The rest of the economy needs the same investment levels that it receives today. In fact it needs more in order to grow the economy. You seem to be missing the important part here... you know, where, say, a civil servants had a 60k job, 2 kids and a house and could happily service it all. Suddenly not being able to do those things, because they have just lost nearly 50k is spending power, sees that money no longer enter the economy. Where is the tax going to come from if noone can afford to buy anything because certain sectors needs todays income and growth in order to survive? What new tax sources are you talking about?

Production has to stop. You still have pollution and climate issues to deal with. That will also kill your economy. I'm not giving you a timeframe here. So stop making it out as if I am. It will slide into oblivion as each sector fights for the $ that's left in any given market, coz again, who will really be able to afford things?

The free market is like jesus trying to catch a marble. It lurches from one side to the other trying to ensure that money gets to the right place. Well, it doesn't. The number of jobs that will be created will be miniscule and will be paid peanuts. And back we go again to the discretionary income no longer existing and prices highly unlikely to fall that much to accomodate where entire industries automate and peeps lose well paid jobs blah blah ad infinitum. That's the economic chain and how things happen in todays world when you shake a pillar of the economy. Technology has massive potential when it is directed, not pushed to a place where it makes money and gives you a shinier version of yesterdays. It's a waste in any language.



There was no ambiguity in it. You would pay people for not being at their job, because you had already budgeted to do so. If you choose not to, then realise the economic consequences of individual businesses doing such a thing in a fashion that gives no consideration to their employee being someone else's customer.

A special menton



Then don't read the post like that fuckstain. Why would I need to? Other than fucking with you... which while tempting, I've already done that and it got boring real quick.

super special mention



Thinking would help. But hey, we're moving into wanting to fuck with you territory.

What's this sudden job loss you think a UBI is going to bring? that's coming in any system, it's not a UBI attribute. The new tax source is the automation, either tax it 'directly' or simply enjoy the increased tax income from the profits (probably the latter moving to the former over time, and no I haven't made out as if you are giving me a time-frame).

Why does production have to stop? To address the climate and resource issues production has to get smarter, and more efficient, this does not stop it at all.

There will be vast amount of jobs created, however the skill level required will be high so they may not be attainable for everyone. The free market will ensure that education is prioritised accordingly; if some automation is good, more is better, and this requires more engineers to automate things. Then we can head of to the moon/mars and asteroid belts for resources...

Well since I'm now being berated anyway. Your post and system outlined in the other thread is garbage, your IRD example particularly so, the loss of tax income from those 4000 people is more than offset by not having to pay them to begin with! There is however, a lot of parrallels that can be drawn to the UBI system, you suggest paying those people anyway while they retrain, a UBI pays people while the retrain as well, don't make the mistake of taking GM's 10k pa UBI as the only amount that it could ever be.

[TheDemonLord]

Tech also decreases cost of goods, while allowing a new tax source, or at least making the remaining tax sources generate more in tax. It won't kill the economy but does require risks to be managed. After all, production and consumption are still trivial to balance in a tech centric economy.

Rent is commonly available for $100, the UBI is a Basic income, you can live on it, but it greatly incentivises not doing that.

The free market handles Tech re-employment.

You post in the link was very focused on a few specific examples with a massive amount of ambiguity in how the system would actually work, and I don't feel like being berated for not being a mind reader again so how about you reiterate its points as to how it relates to our discussion now.

"The Printing Press will make the monks lazy and idle"
"The Steam Mills will signal the end of the Textile worker"
"The Traction Engine will invalidate the requirement for Farm Laborers and Horses"
"Shipping containers will make Dock workers obsolete"
"AI will make driving jobs a thing of history"

And yet - with each great and radical leap forward in industry, when Technology has come along that has drastically reduced the required workforce in one area, we have not seen the compound unemployment and the financial apocalypse that is predicted.

It's almost like necessity drives people to innovate and create jobs, thus allowing for job movement in the market.

[mashman]

What's this sudden job loss you think a UBI is going to bring? that's coming in any system, it's not a UBI attribute. The new tax source is the automation, either tax it 'directly' or simply enjoy the increased tax income from the profits (probably the latter moving to the former over time, and no I haven't made out as if you are giving me a time-frame).

Why does production have to stop? To address the climate and resource issues production has to get smarter, and more efficient, this does not stop it at all.

There will be vast amount of jobs created, however the skill level required will be high so they may not be attainable for everyone. The free market will ensure that education is prioritised accordingly; if some automation is good, more is better, and this requires more engineers to automate things. Then we can head of to the moon/mars and asteroid belts for resources...

Well since I'm now being berated anyway. Your post and system outlined in the other thread is garbage, your IRD example particularly so, the loss of tax income from those 4000 people is more than offset by not having to pay them to begin with! There is however, a lot of parrallels that can be drawn to the UBI system, you suggest paying those people anyway while they retrain, a UBI pays people while the retrain as well, don't make the mistake of taking GM's 10k pa UBI as the only amount that it could ever be.

Have it your way. You're bang on with your analysis. Love your work.

[Swoop]

What a fucking moron.

That was called "asking a question" and you might have seen the curvy-line with a dot underneath it at the end, which denotes same.
Rather pointless using one anywhere near you though eh Steve?

You can get bak to watching The Wiggles now.

[Brian d marge]

"The Printing Press will make the monks lazy and idle"
"The Steam Mills will signal the end of the Textile worker"
"The Traction Engine will invalidate the requirement for Farm Laborers and Horses"
"Shipping containers will make Dock workers obsolete"
"AI will make driving jobs a thing of history"

And yet - with each great and radical leap forward in industry, when Technology has come along that has drastically reduced the required workforce in one area, we have not seen the compound unemployment and the financial apocalypse that is predicted.

It's almost like necessity drives people to innovate and create jobs, thus allowing for job movement in the market.

No but it brought about the rise of " the shitty job"... At least the Chinese have meaningful work

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Ocean1]

No but it brought about the rise of " the shitty job"... At least the Chinese have meaningful work

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Outside of Beijing most of them would give up their "meaningful" job for a merely shitty job in a heartbeat. Their current job "means" the same as it has since before feudal times: fucking hard work, fuck all pay and a fucking short life.

[TheDemonLord]

No but it brought about the rise of " the shitty job"... At least the Chinese have meaningful work

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

Speak for yourself.

My job involves and Air conditioned office, Flexible hours and Youtube.

[Katman]

That was called "asking a question" and you might have seen the curvy-line with a dot underneath it at the end, which denotes same.

And if you'd taken the slightest notice of the page you were making reference to, you'd realise what a fucking retarded question it was.

[Brian d marge]

Outside of Beijing most of them would give up their "meaningful" job for a merely shitty job in a heartbeat. Their current job "means" the same as it has since before feudal times: fucking hard work, fuck all pay and a fucking short life.

Currently there is over a million or more ( dont make me find the book and quote thats a pain ) a shitload of landless people in china flowing to work areas and out again , many whose land was stolen by the state , many of them who " prefer" to have their land back and work "fkin hard "

Speak for yourself.

My job involves and Air conditioned office, Flexible hours and Youtube.

As do I , I choose my work , and sometime they pay me through the nose for it . but I would rather be doing something else.

[Ocean1]

Currently there is over a million or more ( dont make me find the book and quote thats a pain ) a shitload of landless people in china flowing to work areas and out again , many whose land was stolen by the state , many of them who " prefer" to have their land back and work "fkin hard "

That's, what, about 1.4%?
So fuck all.

In the meantime the 30% plus Chinese that are designated agricultural workers, working on the land the local govt designates as "theirs", (none of which has ever been anything but state owned) would just love to have one of those "shitty" jobs.

But, as I've pointed out before, if you fancy that lifestyle you can always go live on a commune.

[Brian d marge]

That's, what, about 1.4%?
So fuck all.

In the meantime the 30% plus Chinese that are designated agricultural workers, working on the land the local govt designates as "theirs", (none of which has ever been anything but state owned) would just love to have one of those "shitty" jobs.

But, as I've pointed out before, if you fancy that lifestyle you can always go live on a commune.

I do and will ( I hope) as stuffed into trains and returning to my stack and pack 5 X 10 just seems so idyllic
Looks like I'm going to have to get me book out and edumikate you again

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

[Graystone]

"The Printing Press will make the monks lazy and idle"
"The Steam Mills will signal the end of the Textile worker"
"The Traction Engine will invalidate the requirement for Farm Laborers and Horses"
"Shipping containers will make Dock workers obsolete"
"AI will make driving jobs a thing of history"

And yet - with each great and radical leap forward in industry, when Technology has come along that has drastically reduced the required workforce in one area, we have not seen the compound unemployment and the financial apocalypse that is predicted.

It's almost like necessity drives people to innovate and create jobs, thus allowing for job movement in the market.

Exactly, so more innovation into automation sectors leads to more innovation everywhere!

Except spotify, fuck spotify.

[YellowDog]

So Jacina's pregnant and Winston's going to be PM.

Sounds like the "King Maker" made himself King

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/p...r-a-generation

[TheDemonLord]

So Jacina's pregnant and Winston's going to be PM.

Sounds like the "King Maker" made himself King

https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/p...r-a-generation

Who shot the Beaver?

And suddenly I have visions of Winston in his throne room, gleefully tapping his fingers muttering "Just as planned"