Cage license restrictions?

**Krayy** · 7th January 2005, 07:40

After reading the "Most accidents happen at < 85km/h" thread in th Sports Bikes forum, it reminded me of a debate a few friends and I had around the dinner table - license restrictions for cage drivers.

We all know the limits for L and R plate bikers with regards to capacity, but cage drivers can drive hulking V8s or souped up jap pocket rockets without and formal qualification whatsoever. In fact, the impetus for the conversation was my brother relating a tale of a fatality of one of his staff when he went out and brought a Holden V8 as his first car and rammed it head first into a giant palm on the Whenuapai airbase at 120 km/h right outside the door to his workplace. He had to look at the tree that claimed the life each day on his way in and out. The upshot was that nobody was responsible for it except the dead kid. Not the dealer who sold the car to him or the licensing authority who allowed him to drive it. And don't get me started on the crazed overseas students who come here to experience freedom in all its glory.

So the question is this. Should newly licensed cage drivers be able to buy or modify any car of their choosing, or should they be limited until they have proved themself safe enough to drive without killing themselves or others on the street?

As an aside, the LTSA do have rules regarding modifactions made to cages ( http://www.ltsa.govt.nz/vehicle-safe...ification.html ), but do these vehicles have to have any markings or windscreen stickers that verify that the mods have been approved? I don't think so.

**Yokai** · 7th January 2005, 08:11

It seems strange that in biking world we have to deal with 250s until we've done the graduated learning scheme. While I recognise that having a driver in the car with the learner is a good thing, it is often the case that this doesn't happen, or the driver that is there is not responsible (having just got through their part of the GLS)

I reckon that from 15-18 you should not be able to drive anything bigger than 1600cc. You have 18months from 15-16.5 with a driver, then 6months without -THEN if you are accident free for those 6 months, you get to have a restricted license that only becomes a full license after 1 year of no offenses, and a max of 1 at-fault accident. (being rear-ended doesn't count)

Course this is all draconian and costs money, but there'd be some sort of CBTA thing that could speed this up, and you'd get extra points for doing a police driving course or something....

**Coyote** · 7th January 2005, 08:13

I think they should be restricted further. 0-1300cc unmodified. Big bore exaughst = instant loss of licence

**Monsterbishi** · 7th January 2005, 08:21

The size of the motor is irrelevant, it should be as per some parts of Australia, where there are strict power:weight laws, so that you can't drive anything faster than say 100hp per ton of weight.

Small engine technology has come light years in cars, just look at the likes of the 1600NA engine that Nissan used in the VZr-N1, 197bhp - bone stock!

**Blakamin** · 7th January 2005, 08:25

In Victoria, its a power-to-weight ratio thing... keeps them out of V8 toranas and evil shit like that, but you also have to be 18!
should be the same here...

[geez Monsterbishi, are you reading my mind???]

**Gasman** · 7th January 2005, 08:26

I'm with you. New drivers need to be severely restricted, and not just because it won't affect me! I've always thought that it's plain stupid to let novices own powerful cars. It's also crazy to allow major modifications without any form of serious scrutiny (WOF time just doesn't count). The whole system is deficient, yet politicians just don't want to know.

Having said that though, I see that the phantom crusader here in Christchurch, Tim Barnett, now wants to target loud exhausts. Well that's fine, but it still won't stop the "RAGE" jerks until the law has real teeth....BUT watch out for the side effect, namely the upcoming attempt to include motorcycles as well! We need to watch this arguement carefully, because the 'silent majority' of beige wearing invisible people don't like motorcyclists either!

**Hitcher** · 7th January 2005, 08:29

Rather than all of this twaddle about engine size or power, licences should be issued on competency.

All of the various utterances about the road toll allegedly falling are based on better enforcement, safer vehicles and safer roads. A major area of investment that continues to remain overlooked is on the nut behind the wheel (or the handlebars for that matter).

It's too easy to get a driver's licence and the whole act of driving is trivialised by society. If people took driving seriously you wouldn't see kindy mums driving Pajeros with bullbars whilst exceeding the speed limit and straddling the centre line because they're talking on a cellphone (with a "baby on board" sign jiggling in the back window all the while).

**guzzi_nz** · 7th January 2005, 08:32

Originally Posted by alarumba

I think they should be restricted further. 0-1300cc unmodified. Big bore exaughst = instant loss of licence

BE VERY CAREFULL IN WANT U WHAT THESE THINGS BITE BACK

some of the laws

in eupore are shit and make it very hard for motorcycles
ever more if u like to custum alittle

**Roadrash** · 7th January 2005, 08:38

i think you have to be carefull what you wish for, i have a few pommy mates and they all tell me about the heavy restrictions they have over in England,
i believe that it should be a kw rating on the vehicles for the different stages of licences for both cars and bikes. The problems are as soon as people start realising what bikes and cars are putting out the powers at be will try and limit it, ie performance mods and the like in all classes and that opens up a whole new can of worms .............

**Magua** · 7th January 2005, 09:52

A 2 litre limit sounds alright to me, 1600cc limit would be stupid. I drive a 2L Mazda 626 and it's sluggish as hell. Keep in mind cars weigh a fuck load. A power to weight ratio would work best, for my friends in their 1.6's could waste me of the line, but under a broad 2000cc limit I wouldn't be able to drive my car even with it being slower.

**Drunken Monkey** · 7th January 2005, 10:05

It may sometimes be difficult to define what is 'modified' and what is not, ie non-OEM air filters may be considered modified by some, although they are still within the manufacturer's spec.

Perhaps <2000cc and no 'force fed' motors could be a good starting point. Yes, there are still a few cars left in the non-force fed 2000cc range that put out high power, but they're few and far between, and cost is often a limiting factor for new car drivers.

OTOH I would personally rather see the restrictions on bike riders loosened rather than see more ligislation introduced restricting car drivers.

**James Deuce** · 7th January 2005, 10:10

Originally Posted by Drunken Monkey

It may sometimes be difficult to define what is 'modified' and what is not, ie non-OEM air filters may be considered modified by some, although they are still within the manufacturer's spec.

Perhaps <2000cc and no 'force fed' motors could be a good starting point. Yes, there are still a few cars left in the non-force fed 2000cc range that put out high power, but they're few and far between, and cost is often a limiting factor for new car drivers.

OTOH I would personally rather see the restrictions on bike riders loosened rather than see more ligislation introduced restricting car drivers.

Which would still leave 174Kw RX8s in reach of n00bs. Rotary engines are variously described in terms of capacity as the swept colume of the firing chamber, 1.5 times the swept volume of the firing chamber, or 3 times the swept volume of the firing chamber, as firing cycles happen more quickly than a four stroke reciprocating engine. NZ defines the cc rating as the swept volume of the firing chamber, making the RX8 a 1300cc car. ( I think - guessing it still shares 13B config, but with side ports)

Power to weight steps, + competency based training that is part of the school curriculum as per the US. Include basic physics and chemistry as part of the driver training, so people understand F=ma properly, and what happens to long-chain molecules that are continuously under stress.

**Coyote** · 7th January 2005, 10:15

Originally Posted by Jim2

making the RX8 a 1300cc car

Bloody Hell, thats the capacity of my Laser

**James Deuce** · 7th January 2005, 10:18

Originally Posted by alarumba

Bloody Hell, thats the capacity of my Laser

Yup - If the rotary engine config got as much development as even the two stroke, there wouldn't be any other petrol config engine out there. It's thermal efficiency is approaching 20%, with makes the average 8-10% of a reciprocating piston petrol engine look a bit weak.