Poverty measure ... doesn't make sense to me

[TheDemonLord]

It would. Ironically I want you to be a clone of me. Let me explain before you start to build any form of preconception as to what I mean by that.

You can Explain all you want - but thus Spake every Totalitarian Dictator ever.

"The world would be perfect if everyone were more like me"

If that doesn't truly Terrify someone listening to you (and I do mean Terrify in every sense of the word, not just dramatic flare), then there is something wrong with them.

That the poverty exists i.e. lack of access to enough food/housing/power/fuel/transport etc... is the issue. Don't ignore that fact simply because I'm typing it. That'd be exceptionally fuckin stupid. And exceptionally really isn't a strong enough word to convey just how ridiculous it is to ignore something simply because of the people "presenting" it i.e. Mike Hosking/Gareth Morgan/Ocean/TDL/Husaberk/BDM/Ax/Shamubeel Eaqub/John Key etc... Poverty exists. Let's do this .

No one has ever said Poverty doesn't exist.

What we are asking is what you define as Poverty:

Being in War-torn Congo, with only the Clothes on your back, no access to food or water = Definitely Poverty
Living in NZ, on the benefit, in a state house and not having enough money to buy Smokes AND food = Not Poverty

And then we are asking how your system will address said poverty - when you consider that Capitalism (for all it's problems) has done a fantastic job of giving the lower classes and standard of living that would have been the envy of the hyper-elite 50 years ago.

To round things off. Given that you are not your nature, if you can get over that great... but then you're denying the science of the Dunedin Experiment with all of its thousands of researchers that cross just about every discipline there is. It's new thinking in regards to what has come before, because we did believe that there was such a thing called human nature. We found out to the contrary. Whether we were deliberately lied to or not is up for debate. Personally I reckon we have been really rather serious lied to in way too many ways for it all to be considered an accident, but actually choose to act as if mistakes were made because the money changed the outcome. Either way, we've ended up at a situation were the best study in town provided information that states that it's nurture, not nature that defines us. In the very same way, psycopaths are more than likely a product of their environment. Again, and so on and so forth.

First off - no one is saying you are 100% Nature - that's stupidity and a Strawman. Hell, even the Dunedin study - which you are flag waving doesn't say (as you infer) that it's 100% Nurture.

In fact, if you read the Studies - all of them point to that it's an interplay Between Nature and Nurture - which by extension means if you hold the Dunedin Study as valid (as you have touted), then you concede that there are behaviors that are the direct result of the Human Genome - to which we refer to as 'Human Nature' - well done Mashie - you've just disproved your argument with your own evidence.

It might help if you actually understood the position that we hold... but keep hoisting up the Strawman.

There are 10's of millions of RBE advocates all over the globe. They have families. They need a job. They need to do this and that, because they actually have a life that it isn't practical to simply drop given the economic outcomes that would accompany that decision. So them not all "rising" is hardly surprising. That and it is highly likely that a lot of those people would understand that suddenly moving towards an RBE without consideration that that very action could cause serious economic damage and bring about economic sanction and/or embargo etc... Would you really be surprised that they're not "rising" that way either? I'll tell you why though. It's because they're waiting for you to figure it out for yourself and accept that there's a lot of people on this planet, even in NZ, that would happily move towards a planet that doesn't use money. They each have their individual reasons for wanting that. Very sane ones... like wanting to eradicate poverty. By way of example... some genius posted up a poll that showed that over 50% of that forum would happily arse money and move towards something better. I didn't hypnotise them all with my dazzling personality innit, they made their own minds up about it

Some faith those 10's of Millions must have in their system if they aren't willing to implement.

Never trust an Engineer who refuses to use his own designs....

I'll stop there. The picture is way to large to explain without you innerstanding any of the above yourself. Not learning that what I said was true simply, but that looking around you you can see that changing things in certain ways would actually make things better. You choice love.

Love n hugs

Gordon1111

Oh no - we get they Picture - It's the same old Bourgeois and proletariat dichotomy, railing against the reality Pareto distributed success, Velied in Compassion for the Poor, which only seeks to mask an envious seething hatred of the Rich.

I don't choose 'Love' - I've seen where your love leads us - that Utopia is only ever one more execution away.

[Ocean1]

The only place communism exists nowadays is with dictatorships (African nations, Cuba, North Korea, China)

Dude, ALL communism is a dictatorship.

Some of them don't start out that way, but it rapidly becomes apparent that the productive element stop producting if you bleed them too much. And then the fun starts.

and academia...

It certainly seems there's a link between endemic socialism and professions that have a tenuous link between production and remuneration...

[eldog]

I hear it's a busy place and has grown a little bit over the last 50 years.

You should visit and then report back.
Maybe you will have changed your stance

Same problems just different ways of trying to address them. All have pros and cons

Sounded like cassina replied

[Graystone]

There are 10's of millions of RBE advocates all over the globe. They have families. They need a job. They need to do this and that, because they actually have a life that it isn't practical to simply drop given the economic outcomes that would accompany that decision. So them not all "rising" is hardly surprising. That and it is highly likely that a lot of those people would understand that suddenly moving towards an RBE without consideration that that very action could cause serious economic damage and bring about economic sanction and/or embargo etc... Would you really be surprised that they're not "rising" that way either? I'll tell you why though. It's because they're waiting for you to figure it out for yourself and accept that there's a lot of people on this planet, even in NZ, that would happily move towards a planet that doesn't use money. They each have their individual reasons for wanting that. Very sane ones... like wanting to eradicate poverty. By way of example... some genius posted up a poll that showed that over 50% of that forum would happily arse money and move towards something better. I didn't hypnotise them all with my dazzling personality innit, they made their own minds up about it

So what is an RBE?

[mashman]

So what is an RBE?

Simply put. Doing things that need to be done because they need doing and not because they make a profit i.e. giving people free access to the best food that can be grown, for one. It sees the production of stuff for the sake of making money as just that and stops doing it without economic reprisal.

Production. Production will be stopped by the business owner making his/her own mind up as to whether their good/service actually yields a decent ROI in terms of the Planet v's Economy and Economy v's Human Development balances that need to be struck. As there is no money, there is no financial shock.

That covers the basics.

[Graystone]

Simply put. Doing things that need to be done because they need doing and not because they make a profit i.e. giving people free access to the best food that can be grown, for one. It sees the production of stuff for the sake of making money as just that and stops doing it without economic reprisal.

Production. Production will be stopped by the business owner making his/her own mind up as to whether their good/service actually yields a decent ROI in terms of the Planet v's Economy and Economy v's Human Development balances that need to be struck. As there is no money, there is no financial shock.

That covers the basics.

That's just evangelising the preferred outcomes, what actually is an RBE?

[mashman]

That's just evangelising the preferred outcomes, what actually is an RBE?

lol@evangelising. The financial economy has preferred outcomes too.

You do what you choose to do and do it. That is what an RBE is.

[Graystone]

lol@evangelising. The financial economy has preferred outcomes too.

You do what you choose to do and do it. That is what an RBE is.

That's just more evangelising, capitalism also allows you to choose what to do and do it. As does a monarchy, technocracy, theocracy... the point is, the preferred outcomes are not what defines what it is. What it is, defines that.

[Katman]

That's just more evangelising, capitalism also allows you to choose what to do and do it. As does a monarchy, technocracy, theocracy... the point is, the preferred outcomes are not what defines what it is. What it is, defines that.

Perhaps it's just a case of focusing on more important issues than just creating wealth.

[Graystone]

Perhaps it's just a case of focusing on more important issues than just creating wealth.

Perhaps, do you know what and RBE is?

[Katman]

Perhaps, do you know what and RBE is?

Refer my previous post.

[Graystone]

Refer my previous post.

Which was a mindset, not an economy. And is also a mindset that can flourish in (as per my previous post) a myriad of other political models such as a monarchy, technocracy, theocracy...

[mashman]

That's just more evangelising, capitalism also allows you to choose what to do and do it. As does a monarchy, technocracy, theocracy... the point is, the preferred outcomes are not what defines what it is. What it is, defines that.

No, capitalism allows you to do what you can afford to do and no further. It allows the environment to be destroyed in the name of profitability with a hint of "oh but it's getting better" thrown in for good measure. It does not give you free access to anything in order to do what needs to be done. Somewhat ironical like, is that the methodologies of monarchy, technocracy, theocracy are defined by the outcomes they yield and the vision of each offer i.e. their perceived outcomes.

You failed in your first response and I gave you a chance. You failed in the follow up response so you're gone burger. You also failed in response to Katman as you also ignored what he had to say about it too. I lol'd when you mentioned mindset, as you hit the nail on the head for once. Anyhoo, that's as far as you and I go.

[Graystone]

No, capitalism allows you to do what you can afford to do and no further. It allows the environment to be destroyed in the name of profitability with a hint of "oh but it's getting better" thrown in for good measure. It does not give you free access to anything in order to do what needs to be done. Somewhat ironical like, is that the methodologies of monarchy, technocracy, theocracy are defined by the outcomes they yield and the vision of each offer i.e. their perceived outcomes.

You failed in your first response and I gave you a chance. You failed in the follow up response so you're gone burger. You also failed in response to Katman as you also ignored what he had to say about it too. I lol'd when you mentioned mindset, as you hit the nail on the head for once. Anyhoo, that's as far as you and I go.

As does any economy or political system, it is only the 'afford' that changes. Capitalism you can only afford what you can earn, communism you can only afford what you are told, in an RBE you can only afford your share of what everybody else produces.

To presume you can judge who passes and who fails shows just how authoritarian your regime; fuck, I've figured it out! it's REGIME Based Economy! the regime is the resource.

[mashman]

You should visit and then report back.
Maybe you will have changed your stance

Same problems just different ways of trying to address them. All have pros and cons

Sounded like cassina replied

I will have changed my stance on what exactly? You seem to have made a point without me knowing it. If you mean people living in poverty. I went to Kosovo not long after the war had finished with an aid group and saw poverty with the ability to barely survive in winter after yer house had been blown to pieces etc... I know that millions of people have it worse than that. But yeah, what stance am I supposed to change?

What problems?

I don't read the guy/gal.