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Thread: Summer running - 2000 Ducati ST2

  1. #31
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by HenryDorsetCase View Post
    I had the exact same issue on my Street Triple when I first got it! Both the bolts holding the sidestand bracket to the frame were loose.

    What I have failed to understand with your issue with the front sprocket: how can it be put together wrong like that? was the sprocket on backwards? was there a spacer missing?
    Yeah, I think the sidestand thing is pretty common. Usually it's located where it'll get sprayed with chain lube. Between heat cool cycles, vibration, and constant oiling, it usually finds a way to come loose.

    The front sprocket: probably better explained with pictures. Apologies if this is a bit kid's primer, a few people have struggled with what's going on here so I'll break it down as far as possible. Let's go...

    1) nice new sprocket and locking tab washer. The washer is set up so it'll slide onto the gearbox output shaft, notice how the spline teeth are lined up and the screw holes are covered.
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    2) locking tab washer is now set up as it would be once everything was on the output shaft. The spline teeth are now one step out of phase.
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    3) munted locking tab washer (the problem) now in place, notice how the locking teeth that should be there just aren't any more. They've been completely worn away.
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    4) the gearbox output shaft, where the front sprocket attaches. Note the groove near the shaft end. I've slid the locking tab washer on past the point it'd normally lock to.
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    5) Locking tab washer in its normal position, teeth in the groove, teeth rotated so that it won't slide on the spline any more. This isn't normal, usually the front sprocket would be underneath this.
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    6) Front sprocket in place, locking tab washer in place, screws not yet properly tightened up. When they are, the sprocket will be pulled into its proper position on the output shaft. The sprocket can't slide further down, or off, the output shaft. The locking washer is doing its job and locking the sprocket to the shaft groove.
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    And I've run out of pictures... The problem on my bike was that the teeth were completely gone off the locking washer. The whole assembly was free to slide on the output shaft's spline. It wasn't bad assembly. It's pure neglect and wear.

    The cause: the front sprocket and the output shaft splines aren't an exact fit. They're just a little bit loose. They have to be, otherwise the slightest bit of dirt between them and you'll need a puller to yank the sprocket off (maybe that happens sometimes, I don't know). Anyway, slightly loose meant a slight motion per rotation was possible. Movement plus grit means abrasive wear. After a while, the locking teeth are simply gone. Ducati specify a check / replace interval of every 10,000 kms... I think there's a pretty good chance that this is the original washer and it's never been checked properly.

  2. #32
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Fun and games with fairings

    Yesterday I had a look at the crack in the RH mid fairing. I'd been thinking I'd had to fabricate some sort of sheet metal patch, hide it as best as possible and screw and glue the thing, to prevent the crack spreading further. Found a couple of things...

    Ducati use a system of screw insert expanding rubber plugs (Wellnuts) to secure the fairings. I think it's a good system but it does have its limitations.

    The first is that it's not idiot proof. There's more than a few Kiwis out there who seem to reckon that a screw should be done up good and tight, winch it up until the head's about to come off and you've done a good job. Not always... I've recovered a couple of wellnuts off the fairing base which had the brass insert pulled right through the rubber and halfway through the fairing panel itself. There are cracks around more than one of the panel mounting holes.

    The second issue is to do with the fairing support posts, projecting out from the frame. These are simple black aluminium tubes which the M6 wellnuts push into the ends of. The hole for the wellnuts is smooth sided, there isn't an internal recess. It kind of has to be this way. The rubber tends to set and permanently expand, after it's been in place for a while. If the hole wasn't smooth sided, you'd struggle to get an old wellnut out.

    The issue with the design is twofold: the wellnuts are prone to walking out over time, and they'll also walk out if overtightened. The rubber expands anywhere it can, say right at the end of the tube on the chamfer, and so the wellnut can pull itself out while being done up good and tight.

    The rearward triangle on the fairing was effectively flapping in the breeze. The wellnut was vice tight and secured to nothing. It was like this on both sides, and this is probably the reason that the fairing panel cracked in the first place. This can be very quickly tested for by gently pulling the fairing panel. If the wellnuts look as munted as the pair I removed, they'll have to be replaced, these won't go back into the posts when they look like the one pictured.

    The other major thing I noticed (finally) occurred after I saw really nasty scratch damage on the radiator surround panel, directly behind the front wheel. I'd been at it with a noodle sponge while cleaning the bike up. Very disappointing to see a finish get carved up this easily, I thought, Ducati must be using Euro enviro-compliant paints... and then I thought about how flexible the fairing was around the windshield, where it's nothing but plastic... and how thin the panels were... and then I finally realised.

    It's a cheap, probably Chinese-made fairing panel set. These aren't fibreglass. It's possible that they aren't even ABS. I've bought a bike which has been re-dressed in cheap garbage.

    This might explain why the front end of the bike has looked a wee bit wonky, even though the bike handles just fine. It's possible that the panels have been going soft in the sun and sagging while the bike's been parked during the day. The plastic is that soft.

    Seriously pissed off but what can I do... I'd seen repaired crash damage on the RH front lower panel and looked good and hard at that during the purchase, too. How the hell did I miss this.

    So: if you're looking at buying a bike, once of the pre-purchase checks is to find a fairing panel edge and see if it seems soft, thin or flexible, especially if it's been out in the sun for a few minutes. Ducati fairings are thick, solid fibreglass, with (in my limited experience anyway) good thicknesses of finishing. They're solid and feel like it.

    This is roughly a $2K difference in value of the bike, come resale time. It's going to be more than that to replace the fairing set, if I want to go proper new OEM. I was pretty angry and sweary yesterday - what a sucker - one step forward and seven steps back.

    You really can't take anything for granted in the used market.
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  3. #33
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    14th July 2006 - 21:39
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    I would not feel too bad about it - there are a pile of sports bikes of all makes running around with aftermarket fairings.

    When you sell or trade you say nothing about it - same as everyone else.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    Yesterday I had a look at the crack in the RH mid fairing. I'd been thinking I'd had to fabricate some sort of sheet metal patch, hide it as best as possible and screw and glue the thing, to prevent the crack spreading further. Found a couple of things...

    Ducati use a system of screw insert expanding rubber plugs (Wellnuts) to secure the fairings. I think it's a good system but it does have its limitations.
    Half the ones on my bike were shagged, bought a set of replacements off Ebay for $48 landed here, not sure if it included the bit rear fairing mounts though.

    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    It's a cheap, probably Chinese-made fairing panel set. These aren't fibreglass. It's possible that they aren't even ABS. I've bought a bike which has been re-dressed in cheap garbage.

    So: if you're looking at buying a bike, once of the pre-purchase checks is to find a fairing panel edge and see if it seems soft, thin or flexible, especially if it's been out in the sun for a few minutes. Ducati fairings are thick, solid fibreglass, with (in my limited experience anyway) good thicknesses of finishing. They're solid and feel like it.

    This is roughly a $2K difference in value of the bike, come resale time. It's going to be more than that to replace the fairing set, if I want to go proper new OEM.
    Either they're plastic from factory, or someone has replaced the fairings on my bikes as well, they're not fibreglass either and pretty lightweight.

    Might warrant a bit more research before you get carried away buying fairings...
    Riding cheap crappy old bikes badly since 1987

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  5. #35
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    14th July 2006 - 21:39
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    I'd thought the Ducati ones were plastic not fiberglass as the glass is heavy and pumping out plastic covers would be quicker and cheaper.

    Or carbon fibre on the exotic ones. Mmmmmmmm carbon fibre. The aftermarket supplies shit loads of CF parts for my Streetfighter. The irony is (aside from the wheels) is that you are just replacing plastic which is already light. Still, I may need to buy a piece ......... to match the mufflers you understand.

  6. #36
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    OK, looks like I got angry and jumped to a conclusion then. I was going from comparison with the fairings on the Supersport. Whoops. Thanks for the heads-up Neels, I was starting to think about going shopping... the tip about the wellnut set is good too.

  7. #37
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    9th January 2005 - 22:12
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post

    3) munted locking tab washer (the problem) now in place, notice how the locking teeth that should be there just aren't any more. They've been completely worn away.

    4) the gearbox output shaft, where the front sprocket attaches. Note the groove near the shaft end. I've slid the locking tab washer on past the point it'd normally lock to.


    And I've run out of pictures... The problem on my bike was that the teeth were completely gone off the locking washer. The whole assembly was free to slide on the output shaft's spline. It wasn't bad assembly. It's pure neglect and wear.
    Thank you, now I understand. It does seem a rather weird setup but I guess there is no lateral force on it in normal running. Interesting that when it wasnt retained it went inwards towards the engine not outwards towards freedom.

    I do really enjoy your threads by the way.
    I thought elections were decided by angry posts on social media. - F5 Dave

  8. #38
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Thanks Henry. I didn't photograph it properly but it looks like the sprocket wandered both ways on the shaft before settling inboard - the clutch slave is chewed up and it looks like the chain's been running on it briefly. It would have been the only thing preventing the front sprocket making a bid for freedom. It's worth checking that locking washer.

    Carrying on with catching up on skipped maintenance - that's what I get for buying an ex commuter - this time it was replacing the dodgy old tyres. Five years old at the front, six at the back.

    I had the back tyre let go briefly while exiting a roundabout, in the dry. It was overinflated ex dealer (40 psi when the owner's manual says just 32) which wouldn't have helped, but it still shouldn't have done that. We've been getting a lot of sudden showers lately. I simply wouldn't trust these tyres in the wet. Quick runarounds from home are one thing, on multi day tour is another... better to simply change the tyres.

    Tyre change. Jack the bike up, take the wheels off, go to the dealer and get them to sort the beading and balancing. Bring the wheels back home, put them back onto the bike, drop the stands and done. Well, that was the plan.

    I ran into some difficulty with the front axle. Normally this should push out by hand. It'll be a little gummed up with old grease and maybe road dirt and brake dust, but it should push. Not here. The usual procedure is to take a suitable drift and hammer the thing out; I think this puts brutal shock loads through the forks, tree, head bearings and frame, unless there's a helper with a massive counterweight on the other side of the wheel.

    Twist and push is the other way. If you can only push lightly but can apply high torque, getting it rotating can free it up to move axially. Not really possible here though. Ducati have used a very specific end design instead of a generic hexagon of some kind, and without the dedicated tool it's not possible to torque the axle itself. It wouldn't work if it's trapped by rotating bearings anyway, they'll simply roll with the torque.

    I resorted to using a gear puller on the brake disc carrier. This is very dicey. It'd be very easy to bend that carrier and thus lead to a problem with the front brakes, at least the way I was doing things. If a thick pair of half-circles could be lathed up and put on the inner back face of the carrier to spread the load or allow the puller legs to get closer to the wheel hub, it'd probably be a lot more forgiving.

    Some PB Blaster, delicate tightening up of the gear puller, and using a socket and extension bar to get the reach needed for the through push, and I had the axle out. It was during reassembly that I realised what the problem had been.

    Ducati have put an adjustment for the front suspension at the base of the fork legs. To get at this, a screwdriver has to go upwards, through the axle itself. To save pulling the axle for every adjustment, they've thoughtfully designed in a pair of holes at each end of the axle. There's no messing around, you just go straight for your adjustment.

    The trouble with this design is that it looks just like the tommy bar holes on an old spark plug spanner, one of the cheap formed tube things that turn up in the bike toolkit. Everyone knows that what you do with these is to slide the bar or a screwdriver through the holes, then use them for the torque when you're tightening it up.

    I think this may have happened with this axle, at both ends, possibly both undoing / doing up again too. A quick go-around the diameters in the vicinity of the holes showed it was out of round by about 0.2 to 0.3 mm at each end. No wonder it isn't sliding freely through the wheel or the stanchion clamps.

    A spot of filing in the vise sorted it out. That took the passivation off, off course. I'll have to be careful to keep it greased and clean from now on or else it'll rust and then jam in place again, and that brings me to the second problem with this design. The stanchion clamps are very open to outside conditions. It's almost impossible to avoid rust long term. I've had good results with preserving surfaces under a thick layer of grease which has been allowed to pick up dirt, maybe that'll work.

    The stanchion clamps were opened up a bit for reassembly by using a bolt from the back and a washer in the slot. Again, care needed during this procedure, it'd be very easy to damage these clamps. Open enough to get a sliding fit and no more.
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  9. #39
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Near Miss - long post

    I had the bike just about jump off the stands yesterday. I was at floor level, scrubbing the underside of the crankcase, in preparation for refitting the centerstand.

    Rainy as hell outside, nobody in the street. The phone was upstairs. I was working alone. If the bike had gone over sideways on me... well. Could've been quite nasty. It's not exactly a lightweight.

    What happened was that the front stand folded up due to shaking from the scrubbing. This let the bike leap backward on the rear stand. It is astonishing just how fast something this heavy can move once a support collapses. The swingarm narrows down near the engine, so the pair of L-tabs that go under the swingarm were now set too wide. I very nearly lost support on one side. At that point, the bike's going over unless someone's already got a hand on it and is braced for the weight.

    There was quite a buildup to this near miss.

    I'd jerry-rigged an adaptor for the front stand to connect to the headstock. Ducati have used a very large diameter tube (the inside diameter is around 25mm) and none of the stand's supplied adaptors were anywhere near large enough in diameter. I'd like to lathe something proper up for the job, in the meantime a filed-down 50x50 M12 washer and one of my sockets would do, or so I thought. After this event it's now clear that the front stand has to be connected to that head tube. There really can't be flex. The adaptor has to be a good fit, otherwise the entire stand can pivot at the connection point and thus roll outward at floor level.

    The front stand itself wants some work done. Maybe slightly larger wheels... As supplied, it's always been marginal for this kind of thing, the axle location seems to be off by about 10 mm. The idea is that once set up, it's locked in to the floor by the way it carries the load. The handle part of the stand (covered with foam) should require some force to pull up from the floor, when the stand is to be let down. Not with this particular unit, it's always been twitchy. A kick by accident and the whole thing could collapse.

    I've always just lived with that, probably a case of not having had several front stands and therefore not knowing a good stand from a bad one. A modification worth thinking about is a lock of some kind on the hinge joint. That won't be easy to do though.

    The bike wasn't secured to the roof, or under any of the lifting points. In the end I don't think this would have helped anyway. The beams holding the garage roof up are so riddled with borer and rotten that it's likely that the bike would have pulled the roof down.

    A problem with the rear stand is that the swingarm doesn't sit plane with the horizontal. It's angled. If lifting bobbins have been installed on the swingarm and the stand lifts on forks, then the stand is fixed in position relative to the bike and won't work its way along the swingarm. Not so with this unit, the angle means that any movement of the bike on the stand causes things to start walking. It's only friction between the plastic-covered L-plates and the swingarm itself that keeps things where they are. I'm going to have to think about this stand, too.

    The centerstand was off because it had moved while front-standing the bike, clearly it was loose in the same manner as the side stand and needed attention. Clean everything and retorque all fasteners. The bike shaking from scrubbing for this job is what finally caused this near miss. The centerstand should have waited until I had the wheels back on again, but that's easy to say after the fact.

    All of this aside, the real reason this happened is that I was working fast, trying to get too many things done at once. I'd lost perspective.

    Obviously (in hindsight) I shouldn't have been scrubbing while the bike was so precariously held up on the stands. I should have had auxiliary restraints in place, like the straps to the roof beams, and the roof beams themselves should be up to the shock loading. The stands should have been sorted out, at least. Etcetera. Ah well. Live and learn and then don't let it happen again, unless of course you don't live or learn or take preventative action.

    I managed to jack the bike back up again (literally) by floor jack and front axle, which thankfully didn't bend or crush. I then had to get the bike back onto front and rear stands, with the floor jack getting in the way of the front stand, and the rear wheel (refitted) constantly wanting to roll the bike away from the stand on the angled bit of 2x4 underneath it. All of this while the bike was wanting to topple sideways on rear tyre and front axle... This bit of wood should have been flat. I only realised after I'd finally got the bike in place on the stands again. It's not easy to slow down and be deliberate after something like this happens.

    I was also very lucky to not smash the headlight glass or destroy the nose fairing. Not a pleasant experience and not one I'm keen to repeat.
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  10. #40
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    8th January 2005 - 15:05
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    1) Oberon do pricey but good mirrors, everything else is basically a copy of the Oberon design
    I'm enjoying your write-up although your skills are way in advance of mine.

    CRG do nice quality mirrors, cheap they ain't but... I don't think they are copies of Oberon because CRG seem to have features Oberon lack.
    https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...bar-end-mirror
    There is a grey blur, and a green blur. I try to stay on the grey one. - Joey Dunlop

  11. #41
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    9th January 2005 - 22:12
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    I'm enjoying your write-up although your skills are way in advance of mine.

    CRG do nice quality mirrors, cheap they ain't but... I don't think they are copies of Oberon because CRG seem to have features Oberon lack.
    https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...bar-end-mirror
    I've used CRG Roll-a-click levers on my last few bikes - I really like them. Plus I would never feel good about using the chinese ebay knockoffs of CRGs which are available on tardme for cheap. When I was a kid I had a brake lever snap in my hand which was traumatic and resulted in another crash. Luckily the TS125 wasn't travelling at warp speed at the time.

    Little bit concerned about OP's stand experience - I have "BikeLift" stands exactly the same as those... though the Street Triple has bobbins.
    I thought elections were decided by angry posts on social media. - F5 Dave

  12. #42
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    24th December 2012 - 21:49
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    I had the bike just about jump off the stands yesterday. Rainy as hell outside, nobody in the street. The phone was upstairs. I was working alone. If the bike had gone over sideways on me... well. Could've been quite nasty. It's not exactly a lightweight.

    There was quite a buildup to this near miss.


    A problem with the rear stand is that the swingarm doesn't sit plane with the horizontal. It's angled. If lifting bobbins have been installed on the swingarm and the stand lifts on forks, then the stand is fixed in position relative to the bike and won't work its way along the swingarm. Not so with this unit, the angle means that any movement of the bike on the stand causes things to start walking. It's only friction between the plastic-covered L-plates and the swingarm itself that keeps things where they are. I'm going to have to think about this stand, too.

    The centerstand was off because it had moved while front-standing the bike, clearly it was loose in the same manner as the side stand and needed attention. Clean everything and retorque all fasteners.

    Obviously (in hindsight) I shouldn't have been scrubbing while the bike was so precariously held up on the stands. I should have had auxiliary restraints in place, like the straps to the roof beams, and the roof beams themselves should be up to the shock loading. The stands should have been sorted out, at least. Etcetera. Ah well. Live and learn.
    good to see you are ok.
    i suffered from something similar but different.
    2 years and the damage I did to myself still aches, everyday I am reminded.

    make sure you dot i’s cross tees. The silliest smallest thing will get you, it got me.
    dont be in a hurry to finish, that’s the most dangerous time.

    screw in some bolts into swing arm if you have a rear stand.

    good work though

    READ AND UDESTAND

  13. #43
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    I'm enjoying your write-up although your skills are way in advance of mine.

    CRG do nice quality mirrors, cheap they ain't but... I don't think they are copies of Oberon because CRG seem to have features Oberon lack.
    https://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/...bar-end-mirror
    Thanks Pritch. I hadn't been aware of the CRG's, I went and had a look at the site and it's obvious that these are seriously good kit. Spare glass is good to see. Thanks for passing that on.

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryDorsetCase View Post

    Little bit concerned about OP's stand experience - I have "BikeLift" stands exactly the same as those... though the Street Triple has bobbins.
    If you've got bobbins then your stand won't walk the way my rear stand did. Just make sure it triangles properly when it lifts the bike - there should be a decent angle front and rear on the stand, so it's locked in to the floor by the bike's weight.

    Quote Originally Posted by eldog View Post
    good to see you are ok.
    i suffered from something similar but different.
    2 years and the damage I did to myself still aches, everyday I am reminded.

    make sure you dot i’s cross tees. The silliest smallest thing will get you, it got me.
    dont be in a hurry to finish, that’s the most dangerous time.

    screw in some bolts into swing arm if you have a rear stand.

    good work though
    Thanks Eldog. I'd wish you a speedy recovery but this is clearly one of those that stay with a person... I hope it does come right in the end.

    Yep. Don't work in a hurry, don't work tired, don't work distracted.

    I'm keen to find some kind of bobbin for the swingarms, both bikes. I've had the stand walk on swingarms before, just never as bad as this before.

  14. #44
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    A couple of bits and bobs from the work refitting axles, wheels etc...

    Ducati have used large diameter, low height hex flange nuts to secure the axles. The front takes a 28 mm socket, the rear is two 30 mm's.

    No problem there, it's just that the low height / high torque of the fastener can very easily introduce a problem due to the chamfer on most sockets. I had a look with my existing cheapo Powerbilt set and found that I'd get 3mm of engagement on the fastener, maybe less. There's 7mm of height to work with. Torque front: 63 Nm. Torque rear: 83 Nm.

    Rip these nuts up and the phrase 'world of pain' comes to mind... I had visions of buying pricey sockets and then spinning them up (maybe in an old lathe) and having at them with an angle grinder, taking that socket entry chamfer off, flattening the end off so I'd get full engagement on the axle nut. I was very pleased to find some $18-ish Bahco six-point sockets at the local M10, with nearly flat chamfers as manufactured. Perfect.

    The next bit was that the steel plates under the swingarm nuts each had a tab bent. I'd guess that they got abused during tightening up, rotating under the nut instead of staying in position on the swingarm.

    Ducati's workshop manual specifies that the axle and the flange nut both get greased. This flies in the face of my previous experiences, but I did as I read and applied grease to axle, threads and nut flange. It worked. There were no issues when retightening, the axle plates stayed where they were supposed to and the straightened tabs stayed the way they were supposed to. I rechecked the rear axle torque after a ride today and the fastener hasn't loosened.

    The last wee trick was rear wheel alignment. I'd been told this one a few years back at the dealer's... use a vernier caliper between axle and the rear of the swingarm. It's a quick way to make sure it's exactly the same on both sides. There needs to be a good set of surfaces to measure off, of course.

    This depends on the swingarm having been made with a high degree of precision, but it's got to be better than the (un-numbered) swingarm dots and the V-notch in the axle plate. Other methods I've used in the past include long bits of 2x4 laid on tyre flanks, or laying prone on the floor and sighting along tyre edges. The bike handled OK after this adjustment, I can't have got it that far out.

    Of course this meant I'd properly tensioned the chain. Should've done this about five minutes after I'd seen how flogged everything here was... massive difference in smoothness during running.

    I'd cleaned the chain and sprockets during the tyre change. This showed that the replacement front sprocket locking tab washer is being chewed up very quickly. The sprocket rattling around loose on the output shaft is what's doing this... there really isn't any fix beyond replacing the flogged sprocket. Parts are on order with a new chain set and plenty of these locking tab washers, I'll just have to wait.

    New tyres have transformed the handling, as well as the grip. I went for Bridgestone T30 Evo's front and rear, so far (1 day ride anyway) they're working out well.
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  15. #45
    Join Date
    3rd February 2004 - 08:11
    Bike
    1982 Suzuki GS1100GK, 2008 KLR650
    Location
    Wallaceville, Upper hutt
    Posts
    5,049
    Blog Entries
    4
    I measure between centre of swingarm pivot bolt and rear axle for wheel alignment. Using a tape measure, doesnt matter how accurate the tape is as long as same one is used each side. And as it happens, the swingarm alignment notches are pretty spot on.
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

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