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Thread: Summer running - 2000 Ducati ST2

  1. #106
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,024
    Changing out a bent clip-on.

    Pretty basic stuff - source acceptable part from wrecker and sub it in, $55 vs about $360 for the brand new OEM item. They're an unusual design which bolts down onto the triple tree top plate so not exactly compatible with generic replacements. There's little in the aftermarket that'd work, although it might be possible to use a fork clamp and a riser.

    About the only technical note I'll throw in here is the use of a stainless steel workshop ruler as a straight edge - an old trick is to put the ruler edge onto whatever you want to check for straightness, then hold the pair up to the light. Any slight gap will become obvious.

    The old bar is bent, badly. It's about 7-ish degrees off straight, by eye. That doesn't sound like much but it's left me feeling like I'm riding curled up or twisted somehow; it's been spoiling my enjoyment of the bike. The new bar isn't perfectly straight but it's a lot better than what it replaces, and after all this time I'd be surprised if the left bar was ruler-straight either.

    I've been out on the bike a few times since this job and the bike does feel a lot better. Surprising how the little things can add up.
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  2. #107
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,024
    Another very basic, very small job: changing out a chewed up, worn out set of footpeg rubbers.

    I'd thought it'd take ten minutes. An hour and a half later I was good to go again... it turns out that time sets philips head screws in pretty well and I had to break out the impact driver, then get a footpeg into the vice so that I could use it. There weren't any issues once I'd done that. The impact driver itself gets used once in a blue moon but it's very handy to have one when it's needed.
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  3. #108
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,024
    Just did the 40K service - no photos sorry, posting for other owners contemplating doing their own work.

    The list:

    Engine oil and filter
    Air intake filter
    Fuel filter and fuel pump flange O-ring
    Valve clearances
    Coolant change
    Fork oil
    Cam belts change (I'd changed them at 30K so just checked condition and tension)
    Clutch and brake fluid
    Grease control cables
    Balance throttle bodies - have left this for now but do need to attend to a fast idle
    Change spark plugs
    The usual suspects of chain tension, wheel, head and swingarm bearings checking, battery condition and electrolyte level, etc

    All fairly straightforward but there are a couple of things I wish I'd known before.

    Forks: you need a couple of specific tools to change the fork oil. They're both pricey and specific but the job apparently goes much smoother if these tools are present (no, haven't done it yet). There isn't a drain bolt so the forks have to come out of the bike completely for this.

    Fuel filter: at 20 years and 40,000 kilometers, it's getting onto time to change the fuel and drain hoses inside the tank as well as the filter. I'll keep going with the current hoses for now but will get Ducati OEM hoses for the next filter change. There have been some posts on FB recently about fuel hoses swelling if immersed, only Dayco hose seemed to hold up properly over time. There are classes of fuel hose and codes. I don't understand these fully yet so won't report further for now.

    I'd also changed the clutch master cylinder for a PS13 Brembo. It's alright, not great, but seems to have solved most of the clutch disengagement issues.

  4. #109
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,024
    Sorting an issue with the bike idling a bit fast. I was concerned about this due to the damage being inflicted on the clutch and gearbox: it went into first with a bang every time, particularly when everything's hot. Keeping the RPM down keeps the shock loads down.

    The first problem was a sticking throttle cable preventing the throttle butterflies from reaching their stop screw. It looked like the throttles closed, it felt like the throttles closed, but they weren't quite getting there.

    The quick test is to listen. With the engine off, get down beside the throttles and see if you can hear the snick when they close. If it's quiet then they're hanging up. The other test, once fairings are off, is to disconnect the throttle cable and operate the throttles directly via the cable pull wheel. This will check if it's the cable or if there's a gunk jam in the throttle shafts or return springs.

    Ducati have used a single throttle cable on this bike (I imagine this is common across most of the injected bikes). There's no pull return cable, so it's vulnerable to 20-year lubricant turning into tar and thus sticking. The return stop screw is right in the middle of the assembly, underneath the airbox, and is basically impossible to see under normal circumstances. There was rust on the tab where the screw would normally contact and leave shiny metal. That was the only visual sign of what was going on. The feeler gauge in the photo was a quick test to see whether the gap had closed or not.

    This is the first time I've been working on injectors so for me it was something of a learning curve. Brad Black covers the system very well on this page:

    http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html

    I read the page as well as the Ducati workshop manuals, considered my total lack of the various esoteric tools needed, and had a think. Underneath the bewildering detail is a reasonably simple procedure:

    1) get stuff out of the way so you have access to the throttle bodies
    2) close the LH butterfly fully in its housing (i.e. it should be sticking / jamming in the throttle body)
    3) set the TPS position to a zero (throttle closed) datum
    4) wind the throttle stop screw in until the LH butterfly is opened to a specified angle, as shown by TPS output voltage
    5) balance the RH throttle against the LH throttle
    6) set idle speed via the air bleed screws
    7) adjust mixture trimpot (on the ECU) to give the desired CO % at idle.

    I've given this a (very) rough go.

    It's possible to read the TPS output signal by tapping into its 3 pin connector and reading mV signal (bike ignition on) with a multimeter. The tap in is done by using dressmaker's pins, twisting a bit of wire onto the head, and carefully sliding these into the rear of the connector, past the weather sealing, so that the point of the pin rests against the crimp of the connector. As Brad Black says, the two outside pins of the TPS connector are the connection points, avoid the one in the middle. Datum (throttle fully closed) signal has to be 150 mV, and this has to be read continually while the TPS is very carefully positioned. It's fiddly and it tends to change as the fasteners are tightened. It's also very important to avoid a short, so care with the leads is necessary.

    My vacuum gauges wouldn't couple in to the inlet manifolds (frame tube / radiator hose) in the way, so I've balanced the throttle plates against each other at full closed position mechanically, by watching the TPS for increase while repeatedly opening and closing the throttles after adjusting the balance screw. The point where the TPS starts to indicate an increase is the point where the RH throttle closing takes over from the LH throttle. It's rough and I don't yet know how well this works. It is possible to get at the balance screw without removing the airbox, so if I can obtain a suitable vacuum adaptor later I'll be able to do this as per normal procedure.

    The LH throttle stop screw is the stop for the pair of throttle bodies, since that's the one with the TPS. I think it's daft - the screw is completely inaccessible under the airbox, while the RH stop screw is beside the cables on the outboard RH side of the bike and can be got at - but that's what the procedures say, so that's what I've done. This was wound in until I got 404 mV signal. That's the Euro setting, there are several:

    Euro: 404 mV
    USA: 460 mV
    Swiss: 505 ? mV
    OEM Manual: 560 mV

    This caused some doubt until I realised that with the 150 mV datum set, all this changes is the idle angle setting of the throttle plates. That's the base idle speed setting, effectively. The air bleed screws change the idle mixture and thus also the idle speed, but this closed throttle angle has to be set first. I'm trying to sort out an over fast idle so went with the most closed throttle, ie the Euro setting, 404 mV / 2.4 degrees.

    This done, the airbox was refitted and I set the air bleed screws to 1 turn out, then tried running the bike, idling until it reached operating temperature. I pulled a spark plug, found the nose to be a very light tan colour, and decided that I'd got as close as I was likely to. I'm not keen to breach the seal on the ECU if I can avoid it. If there's a discharge or short circuit, or I damage the trimpot, that's it, new ECU. I think it should be possible to set idle speed and mixture by iterating between the throttle stop position and the air bleed screws, without touching the ECU, but this would depend on the ECU trimpot being set correctly to start with.

    Care has to be taken with the throttle adjustment screws. The original yellow Ducati marking paint / loctite is good stuff and does not allow free motion. It's easy to stuff screw heads up. From the looks of things, this is the first time that the throttle bodies have ever been touched since leaving the factory; it's been 40,000 km's and they're supposed to be adjusted every 10,000. It's a fiddly and involved procedure, the bike still ran pretty well, so I can understand why it's been skipped... but throttle plates do wear under airflow. TPS sensors wear with throttle motion and oxidise etc as well. There's a reason for the service interval.

    The final note I'll put here was difficulty removing and refitting the airbox. The manual didn't go into detail about this, it seems that this is supposed to pretty well pop straight off and push straight back on. Not for me... I ended up removing the ignition switch / tank latch assembly and having to take the vertical cylinder connector rubber off and out completely (through the airbox) before I could get the airbox off.

    Refitting the airbox was difficult, putting it mildly. I had to take a couple of hours and several goes before I worked out a method - either it wouldn't go into the frame, or the rubber wouldn't go on. Very frustrating. For anyone else needing to do this:

    1) lightly sand the edges of the hole for the LH rubber connector on the airbox, as manufactured there are some sharp edges
    2) grease the airbox hole edges and the lip of the rubber connector flange (not essential but it helps)
    3) fit the LH rubber connector to the vertical cylinder injector body
    4) drop the airbox in, fit the RH rubber connector (left attached to the box) to its throttle body, get the LH connector flange centered and square where it presses against the outside of the airbox
    5) check rotation of the LH rubber connector. The flange and airbox are marked with a position indicator. Pull airbox off again and rotate connector as necessary. You'll be able to feel when the indicators line up.
    6) the frustrating bit... refit airbox, pop RH connector onto throttle, square up LH connector again, then with fingers and a large, flat-blade screwdriver, guide the connector flange into the airbox hole. Work around the perimeter and engage the entire circumference, advancing in small stages. The connector flange will look tapered or conical inside the airbox while this is being done. The trick here is to prevent the flange from buckling. It'll pop into place eventually.
    7) tighten hose clamps, refit the 3 bolts, the oil breather hose, air filter and lid etc.

    Right, time to see how it all worked out. I really hope it did, it's been two full days work to sort something that on a carburetted bike is as simple as turning a screw.
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    Last edited by OddDuck; 28th December 2018 at 08:40. Reason: second day's work

  5. #110
    Join Date
    8th July 2018 - 07:46
    Bike
    Ducati ST2 2003
    Location
    whakatane
    Posts
    7

    throttle cable

    Thanks for the post very interesting
    I just spent 3 days on our ST2, fitted a second hand ohlins rear shock, so while doing so decided to pull the swing arm and grease the bearings / suspension rocker bearings, then pulled the front forks and put in 460mls 5 weight fork oil, greased the steering head bearings and decided to change the cam belts, upper aduster had 2 shot bearings (6201), interestingly my throttle cable housing adjuster end is also very rusty where it connects to the TPI so i will keep an eye that.
    Also spent a few hours with a fibreglass kit glassing up an unknown crack in my LH fairing.
    3 days later all good.
    Noel

  6. #111
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,024
    Well, I turned out to be wrong about balancing the throttles mechanically... it really does need vacuum. The mechanical attempt ended up a full turn away from the balance point and wasn't really dialled in.

    My vacuum gauges wouldn't fit with the engine in frame - there was a cross member blocking access to one of the screw in taps. I found and ordered a cute little 90 degree vacuum banjo elbow from RadioSpares, stock no. 851-4273. This really wants a particular hose size to work properly, ID 4mm, OD 6 mm. I managed with existing hoses and cable ties instead of the proper screw-on hose retainer.

    Anyway, got there, ended up about 1/8th of a turn away from the original setting. Really there wasn't any practical difference at adjustments this fine and simply returning to the as-factory setting would have been as good. Note that I balanced with airbox, filter etc in place, the final photo was taken after pulling the airbox again so that I could loctite the balance screw. I really don't want this moving once the bike's back on the road.

    However the bike is still running rough, idling high (again) and bucking, particularly on start up. I'm having one cylinder drop out occasionally. I suspect gunked up fuel injectors, so cleaning these up somehow is the next job.
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