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Thread: Summer running - 2000 Ducati ST2

  1. #121
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
    So you are at least in you early - late fifties (mid here) if you remember the simple task of a fork drain bolt when changeling oil. It always reminded me of milking a cows teat. I'm sure they were deleted in the 90's. Shame as it avoided fork removal from the bike.
    Ah, guess what I was doing today? I had fork drain bolts on the GB400. I miss them. So easy!!

    Yeah today was pull the forks off, take the tops off and change the oil. The old stuff had gone pretty black but didn't smell nasty. It turned out that the springs aren't stock. Ducati specify a maximum length of 270mm - these were non-progressives which must have been 350+ mm in length. So I'd guess that someone's been in at some point and done a budget fork mod. Not sure about this... however I've been riding on it pretty happily so I'll carry on for now.

    Useful notes: most of it's what you'd expect, jack the bike up on stands front and rear, take fairings off, pull forks. The fork yokes can be used in lieu of a vise if you need to unscrew stuff. The specific tool plus plate was very definitely necessary, this job isn't possible without it, but you really want a second set of hands present. Otherwise you're trying to do fiddly stuff while everything is covered in oil and you're having to push down hard. I did have to make up a little pull tool to get the 3-legged push disk out of the fork tops, not a big deal to do this with some shim, tinsnips and pliers.

    While I was in, I checked the large connector on the LH front of the bike. Apparently this can pick up water and then green rot inside, causing much fun and games with the bike then running rough. This connector links the ECU and the absolute pressure sensor plus a few other things. Anyway it turned out to be aged but dry and OK, a quick spray of some CRC 2.26 and done.

    I also changed out the front temperature sensor. I'd done the rear sensor earlier - the rear talks to the ECU, the front talks to the display on the dash, which has been fairly intermittent and strange numbers lately. Neither was hard to change. Work with bike completely cold, unscrew old sensor, hold finger over open port, whip new sensor in and screw tight. A rag to catch the tiny coolant loss and done, the cooling system doesn't have to be drained unless you want to be absolutely sure about cleaning the port up. The tricky bit is the spring clip retained electrical connector. These turn up in automotive / bike applications quite a bit. I had a lot of trouble getting this to unclip until I worked out the trick: don't try to open the spring, just rotate it, by just over 45 degrees. This can be done with a couple of small flat-blade screwdrivers. Then the connector pulls straight off.
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  2. #122
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Thermostat failure

    As per the title - was just about to park up in town, noticing that the bike really was running hot, when the radiator cap vented. That means a sudden pop, with lots of steam and some coolant splashing around. At the time I put it down to riding for a long time at 50-ish k's with a following wind; there hadn't been much air movement past the bike, i.e. not much air through the radiator.

    On the way home it very quickly became obvious that something was wrong. The bike's temperature gauge would simply keep going up. Normally the ST2 tootles around on highways at 65-ish C, around town at 100-ish with the radiator fan coming on a lot but holding at this temperature. Not this time. After several short runs I tried longer riding times to see if temperatures would stabilise at 110 or so. Nope. Still getting hotter and hotter. On hearing boiling in a cylinder head I decided that the only smart way to get the bike home was to ride until the gauge indicated 100, then pull over, shut down, and wait for the bike to cool via the breeze. There'd be a short time when I could run.

    I'd just replaced the front temperature sensor, the one which talks to the dashboard. Maybe it was reading high... but the radiator cap had never blown like that before, and anyway the reading wasn't constant. It should have started coming down as soon as the bike got some half decent speed, if things were functioning normally.

    It's 22 k's back from town; ride, stop and cool meant covering maybe 2 kms and then waiting twenty minutes. Getting home took nearly four hours. I ended up being very glad I hadn't gone over the hill for the day. Somewhere along the way I finally had the idea of putting a hand onto the radiator and found that it was very nearly at ambient, despite the engine hoses getting seriously hot.

    Hot engine, cold radiator. Coolant wasn't flowing through the cooling array. Almost certainly a failed thermostat, so that was the first thing that came off the bike once I got home, calmed down, and got the fairings off.

    Apologies for the basics if you already know them... The thermostat works as a switch, controlling coolant flow. When cold and closed, coolant flows in a tight loop around the cylinder heads and barrels, through the impellor pump, then straight back to the engine. Once the thermostat opens, it closes that engine-only path off, while opening a second path that includes the radiator. It's called a bypass thermostat, effectively closing one valve while opening another. The idea is to provide a fast warmup to a stable operating temperature, since the engine will work best when warm.

    The photos show the thermostat on the bench. The short, wide, straight neck to the left is the inlet from the radiator. The crooked neck at the rear right is the inlet from the engine. The side outlet is the feed outward from the thermostat to the impellor.

    Thermostat operation here is straightforward: the thermostat moves to the right on warmup, pushing against its mounting spring on the forked plate, and closing the spring-cushioned disc valve against the seat in the valve housing. While doing this, the brass neck of the thermostat is moved outward from the inlet at left, opening up the radiator circuit. The bit that does the pushing is the bright steel pin; it's propelled by a wax motor. The wax provides the pushing motion by expanding dramatically as it melts after reaching a particular temperature. It's about as simple a device as possible. It's possible to open the housing up by carefully filing the swaged-on clamp open and then levering the inlet out of the housing, using a strong knife blade.

    Failure wasn't due to the thermostat. The housing failed. The bright pin had been pushed right through the plastic on the inlet side, cracking it wide open and effectively giving the thermostat nothing to push against. A metal housing would not have failed in this manner.

    In theory it's possible to machine up a non-plastic replacement for the inlet, whip down to Super Cheap Auto or similar to find a matching thermostat, and make up some kind of clamp to hold the whole thing together again... but I'd really rather not have to fiddle with this on tour. It's just too likely to leak. I also couldn't be sure about the opening temperature of the thermostat. This isn't mentioned in the owner's or workshop manuals. The only way to be sure was to purchase a brand new replacement and directly check this with a stove, a pot, and a thermometer. Since I'm buying a new one anyway, well, why not use it? The original, plastic and all, actually did work for 45,000 km's and 18 years. So parts are on order and the bike's parked up while I wait.
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  3. #123
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    3rd March 2008 - 11:55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    The original, plastic and all, actually did work for 45,000 km's and 18 years. So parts are on order and the bike's parked up while I wait.
    Interesting, almost tempted to replace mine on suspicion.

    From past experience owning eurojunk it seems that around 20 years is the life span for plastic bits associated with the cooling system, and once the first bit has let go the rest are probably not far away.

    The joy of keeping things going long past their intended life span.
    Riding cheap crappy old bikes badly since 1987

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  4. #124
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    20th January 2008 - 17:29
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    Quote Originally Posted by neels View Post
    Interesting, almost tempted to replace mine on suspicion.

    From past experience owning eurojunk it seems that around 20 years is the life span for plastic bits associated with the cooling system, and once the first bit has let go the rest are probably not far away.

    The joy of keeping things going long past their intended life span.
    Ain't that the truth. I have a 2001 VW Transporter and although the running gear and body are ok the other stuff like central locking, plastic bits and so on are problematic, but as you say past its best by date.

    Other than taking off the 39mm Flatlslides refitting stock carbs and a cracked swingarm my 93 SL has been fine ( touch plastic wood), saying that I only ride it occasionally for the noise fix.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  5. #125
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    5th January 2007 - 14:58
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    Sounds like your guys euro junk is a bit too new.
    Mine was made before the discovery of plastic as a temporary coolant vessel. well one was .

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by sidecar bob View Post
    Sounds like your guys euro junk is a bit too new.
    Mine was made before the discovery of plastic as a temporary coolant vessel. well one was .
    Seemed to start late 80's, plastic cooling system parts with o-rings instead of gaskets. The latest arrival in the driveway has plastic valve cover, inlet manifold, oil filter housing......but it's only 15 years old so should be good for a while yet, now that it has a new fuel pump after the plastic vanes fell off the impeller on the old one.
    Riding cheap crappy old bikes badly since 1987

    Tagorama maps: Transalpers map first 100 tags..................Map of tags 101-200......................Latest map, tag # 201-->

  7. #127
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    8th July 2018 - 07:46
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    Ducati ST2 2003
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    whakatane
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    Fuel Pump Failure

    Well thats quite an interesting one, the thermostat, i will be very interested in the opening temperature if you happen to test the new (or old) one in hot water, also let us know where you get the new housing from and how much, looks like i will be replacing mine to, pity i just changed the radiator antifreeze as i had to remove the radiator to adjust the valve clearance on the front cyinder (used 50/50 Motul Inugel). Might hold off until my next valve adjustment, given the current level of kms i am doing that will come up fast enough.

    I had an issue about a month ago, trip to cape reinga, bike started missing at higher revs, got worse as the trip went on and figured out going up the cape that it was related to fuel level in the tank, full tank a lot better, more empty the tank the worse the issue. Managed to get home ok to Whakatane but was running like a dog, 5000 rpm rev limit....

    Pondered a few things but seemed like fuel and the fuel filter was one of the few jobs i hadn't done yet so off came the tank, upside down and fuel pump carrier out.

    The fuel filter was blocked solid with rust, that explains the miss but on further investigation someone in the past must have had a blocked strainer (note strainer, not filter, the strainer is the gauze before the fuel pump, the fuel filter is after the fuel pump).
    Any way this person (and i would assume it was someone in Japan, not the NZ bike shop that sold me the bike...) must have had an issue with the strainer blocking with rust, so such person, being very clever carefully peeled all the mesh off the strainer so it could never block up again.

    I am actually impressed with the fuel pump and how well it performed, i did 8000 trouble free kms like that with the fuel pump digesting rust, turning it into a brown powder liquid and feeding it into the fuel filter, and equally impressed with the fuel filter because it didn't let a single bit of the rubbish into my injectors, it just progressively blocked and filtered better and better.

    Long story short, spent a week rolling my tank around on the lawn with a POR15 fuel tank repair kit (motozone) to kill the rust (wasn't actually that much, most had sloshed off and gone through the fuel pump), got a second hand strainer and a new fuel pump and filter and up and running again.

    I will admit it runs a lot better now revs considerably more than 5000 rpm now.

    Funny thing was the bottom of the tank looking through the filler looks mint, no rust at all, not until you pull the fuel pump assembly out from the bottom do you see all the rust sitting on the upper part of the tank where the moisture sits, guess it sat in Japan for a few years, also of interest even filling the tank goes no where near that part of the tank, if it sits and moisture is around then that is where the rust sits and not much you can do about it.

    BTW i put a $75 toyota pump in TOYOTA SPACIA YR22 SPRINTER AE102R TRUENO AE111 (FPE 248). it was the closest pump i could find to match the spec of the $250 ducati pump.
    Oh yeah and $41 for a foot of 5/16 submersible fuel line (repco) as the existing was rock hard, you have to use submersible fuel line as normal EFI fuel line is not designed for in tank use.
    I didn't change the 2ft of vent lines also inside the tank, they were hard but not rock hard.

    I have an SS900 as well so i guess i will have to pull the tank on that sometime and have a look

  8. #128
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    20th January 2008 - 17:29
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    Did the tank on my Superlight recently and much the same.
    I've seen photos in the past of lines and line of motorcycles sitting around in warehouses and open areas, so that explains the rust and corrosion.
    Those tanks are prone to rust and should all be taken apart and inspected along with new filters and fuel line.
    Worse in the injected ones as the vent hose can block and those pumps can sure suck, resulting in a collapsed tank, happened to my one I had in the 00's

    Just on that, symptoms were cutting out for no reason. What I was doing then was checking the fuel, ok and it would go fine for another 100+ ks.
    Wasn't until I did a long run of over 250 with a tank bag got home and the tank had collapsed did I work it out.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  9. #129
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Just installed the replacement thermostat.

    Fairly simple job - push into place, tighten hose clips, refill radiator until level consistent, run engine, refill radiator, cap radiator, get engine warm, check for leaks, tighten hose clips as necessary, refit fairings, done.

    Before doing that I got the new thermostat into a pot on the stove and checked the opening temperature. I'd tried this with the failed thermostat earlier but couldn't get behaviour I could be sure of - the pin had come out, fragments of wax started leaking into the water, etc etc... Anyway the setup is shown in the pictures. The eggbeater is there for stirring since a little bit of scouting with the thermometer showed non-uniformities in water temperature. Proximity of the thermometer wasn't enough, the water had to be stirred and mixed. Cooling to test closing temperature was done by taking the pot off the stove and putting it into a sink of cold water, then stirring again. Apologies for the colour of the photos, something about warm incandescents and non-uniform spectra of light output. The camera software isn't correcting for the colour temperature properly.

    Opening temperature (as far as I can work out) is 68 C. That's an average: it was definitely open at 70 and definitely closed again at 66. That's about as precise as this setup gets without the use of a double boiler and a lot of patience. The eggbeater doesn't put a high volume of flow through the thermostat so there's a big lag in responses to water temperature changes in the pot.

    Thanks for the info about tank rust guys. I've already done the fuel filter (as scheduled, every 20,000 kms) but there wasn't a problem before or after. There is rust in the tank (suprisingly most of it is on the tank base, not the top - cheap ethanol blended petrol picking up moisture?) but I'm living with it for now. Filter's OK, pump's OK, fuel lines are looking their age. Proper submersible fuel line may be an issue in NZ so at this stage the plan is to take the bike to the 60,000 interval and then pony up for the stupidly expensive but reliable Ducati OEM hoses. The originals are still working after nearly 20 years and I want to be sure while on the road.
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  10. #130
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    3rd March 2008 - 11:55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    Opening temperature (as far as I can work out) is 68 C. That's an average: it was definitely open at 70 and definitely closed again at 66. That's about as precise as this setup gets without the use of a double boiler and a lot of patience. The eggbeater doesn't put a high volume of flow through the thermostat so there's a big lag in responses to water temperature changes in the pot.
    That fits with what mine does on the road, sits pretty consistently at 65-67 running normally with reasonable air flow, only gets any higher if sitting still or crawling in traffic.

    Cooling fan doesn't come on until in the 90's which seems a little high, but that's controlled by the ECU so probably can't be altered.
    Riding cheap crappy old bikes badly since 1987

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  11. #131
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    8th July 2018 - 07:46
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    Thermostat housing

    Hi thanks for that info, just a quick question, where did you get your new housing from? Need to get one for mine by the sounds.

  12. #132
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    14th July 2006 - 21:39
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    Quote Originally Posted by neels View Post
    From past experience owning eurojunk it seems that around 20 years is the life span for plastic bits associated with the cooling system, and once the first bit has let go the rest are probably not far away.
    Mrs B's 2004 Golf has a water leak. Turned out to be a $1 O-ring in between two pipes. Had turned to mush. Cost something like $250 to fix, pressure system to find leak, drain, pull a quarter of the shit off the engine to get to offending part, replace, refit, refill, pressure test ...

    Mechanic said it has at least another dozen of the same connections through the cooling system ....

    That was at the arse end of the extended aftermarket warranty and that warranty had been over used in the three years we had the car so we flicked it off for a Suzuki. Wouldn't touch another VW unless it had a factory warranty.

  13. #133
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    20th January 2008 - 17:29
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
    Mrs B's 2004 Golf has a water leak. Turned out to be a $1 O-ring in between two pipes. Had turned to mush. Cost something like $250 to fix, pressure system to find leak, drain, pull a quarter of the shit off the engine to get to offending part, replace, refit, refill, pressure test ...

    Mechanic said it has at least another dozen of the same connections through the cooling system ....

    That was at the arse end of the extended aftermarket warranty and that warranty had been over used in the three years we had the car so we flicked it off for a Suzuki. Wouldn't touch another VW unless it had a factory warranty.
    Yeah....hate cars that don't have a 15 year warranty.
    I sold a T4 Diesel van to a mate for cheap ( FB grammar) when the local dealer said the turbo was shot and needed a new one. Well one turbo later and many hours it was a blocked catalytic converter. That's laptop mechanics for ya and 00's diagnostic tool is pretty useless too.
    Using his knowledge I bought another T4 turbo that was in limp mode.... hours and hours later it was the mass airflow sensor.
    DeMyer's Laws - an argument that consists primarily of rambling quotes isn't worth bothering with.

  14. #134
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    3rd February 2004 - 08:11
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    At isk of this thread turning into a Eurotrash Bash - up at Pickapart there is a rather nice late model Audi V6, no impact damage. While looking for some useful bits for my EFI project, I started talking to a guy who was getting some stuff off said Audi. Turns out he knew the history of the car and why it was there. The thermostat housing had a leak, the owner was quoted several thousand dollars to repair as it involves dismantling much of the front of the car to get at. Owner declined, kept driving the car with no water pressure and eventually no water, and the engine subsequently overheated and seized. (Doesnt say much for eurotrash owners either...)

    Back to your scheduled program.
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  15. #135
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    NoelH - I got the thermostat (complete) off Stein Dinse, two weeks delivered ex Germany. They have a flat rate of EU 40 delivered to NZ / AUS so it's worth lining a few spares up for each order.

    Have a look at https://www.stein-dinse.biz/eliste/i...?sid=ggg&lg=en

    The exploded parts diagrams can be very handy plus also they have photos of the parts which can be very useful.

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