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Thread: Summer running - 2000 Ducati ST2

  1. #106
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,091
    Changing out a bent clip-on.

    Pretty basic stuff - source acceptable part from wrecker and sub it in, $55 vs about $360 for the brand new OEM item. They're an unusual design which bolts down onto the triple tree top plate so not exactly compatible with generic replacements. There's little in the aftermarket that'd work, although it might be possible to use a fork clamp and a riser.

    About the only technical note I'll throw in here is the use of a stainless steel workshop ruler as a straight edge - an old trick is to put the ruler edge onto whatever you want to check for straightness, then hold the pair up to the light. Any slight gap will become obvious.

    The old bar is bent, badly. It's about 7-ish degrees off straight, by eye. That doesn't sound like much but it's left me feeling like I'm riding curled up or twisted somehow; it's been spoiling my enjoyment of the bike. The new bar isn't perfectly straight but it's a lot better than what it replaces, and after all this time I'd be surprised if the left bar was ruler-straight either.

    I've been out on the bike a few times since this job and the bike does feel a lot better. Surprising how the little things can add up.
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  2. #107
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,091
    Another very basic, very small job: changing out a chewed up, worn out set of footpeg rubbers.

    I'd thought it'd take ten minutes. An hour and a half later I was good to go again... it turns out that time sets philips head screws in pretty well and I had to break out the impact driver, then get a footpeg into the vice so that I could use it. There weren't any issues once I'd done that. The impact driver itself gets used once in a blue moon but it's very handy to have one when it's needed.
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  3. #108
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,091
    Just did the 40K service - no photos sorry, posting for other owners contemplating doing their own work.

    The list:

    Engine oil and filter
    Air intake filter
    Fuel filter and fuel pump flange O-ring
    Valve clearances
    Coolant change
    Fork oil
    Cam belts change (I'd changed them at 30K so just checked condition and tension)
    Clutch and brake fluid
    Grease control cables
    Balance throttle bodies - have left this for now but do need to attend to a fast idle
    Change spark plugs
    The usual suspects of chain tension, wheel, head and swingarm bearings checking, battery condition and electrolyte level, etc

    All fairly straightforward but there are a couple of things I wish I'd known before.

    Forks: you need a couple of specific tools to change the fork oil. They're both pricey and specific but the job apparently goes much smoother if these tools are present (no, haven't done it yet). There isn't a drain bolt so the forks have to come out of the bike completely for this.

    Fuel filter: at 20 years and 40,000 kilometers, it's getting onto time to change the fuel and drain hoses inside the tank as well as the filter. I'll keep going with the current hoses for now but will get Ducati OEM hoses for the next filter change. There have been some posts on FB recently about fuel hoses swelling if immersed, only Dayco hose seemed to hold up properly over time. There are classes of fuel hose and codes. I don't understand these fully yet so won't report further for now.

    I'd also changed the clutch master cylinder for a PS13 Brembo. It's alright, not great, but seems to have solved most of the clutch disengagement issues.

  4. #109
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,091
    Sorting an issue with the bike idling a bit fast. I was concerned about this due to the damage being inflicted on the clutch and gearbox: it went into first with a bang every time, particularly when everything's hot. Keeping the RPM down keeps the shock loads down.

    The first problem was a sticking throttle cable preventing the throttle butterflies from reaching their stop screw. It looked like the throttles closed, it felt like the throttles closed, but they weren't quite getting there.

    The quick test is to listen. With the engine off, get down beside the throttles and see if you can hear the snick when they close. If it's quiet then they're hanging up. The other test, once fairings are off, is to disconnect the throttle cable and operate the throttles directly via the cable pull wheel. This will check if it's the cable or if there's a gunk jam in the throttle shafts or return springs.

    Ducati have used a single throttle cable on this bike (I imagine this is common across most of the injected bikes). There's no pull return cable, so it's vulnerable to 20-year lubricant turning into tar and thus sticking. The return stop screw is right in the middle of the assembly, underneath the airbox, and is basically impossible to see under normal circumstances. There was rust on the tab where the screw would normally contact and leave shiny metal. That was the only visual sign of what was going on. The feeler gauge in the photo was a quick test to see whether the gap had closed or not.

    This is the first time I've been working on injectors so for me it was something of a learning curve. Brad Black covers the system very well on this page:

    http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html

    I read the page as well as the Ducati workshop manuals, considered my total lack of the various esoteric tools needed, and had a think. Underneath the bewildering detail is a reasonably simple procedure:

    1) get stuff out of the way so you have access to the throttle bodies
    2) close the LH butterfly fully in its housing (i.e. it should be sticking / jamming in the throttle body)
    3) set the TPS position to a zero (throttle closed) datum
    4) wind the throttle stop screw in until the LH butterfly is opened to a specified angle, as shown by TPS output voltage
    5) balance the RH throttle against the LH throttle
    6) set idle speed via the air bleed screws
    7) adjust mixture trimpot (on the ECU) to give the desired CO % at idle.

    I've given this a (very) rough go.

    It's possible to read the TPS output signal by tapping into its 3 pin connector and reading mV signal (bike ignition on) with a multimeter. The tap in is done by using dressmaker's pins, twisting a bit of wire onto the head, and carefully sliding these into the rear of the connector, past the weather sealing, so that the point of the pin rests against the crimp of the connector. As Brad Black says, the two outside pins of the TPS connector are the connection points, avoid the one in the middle. Datum (throttle fully closed) signal has to be 150 mV, and this has to be read continually while the TPS is very carefully positioned. It's fiddly and it tends to change as the fasteners are tightened. It's also very important to avoid a short, so care with the leads is necessary.

    My vacuum gauges wouldn't couple in to the inlet manifolds (frame tube / radiator hose) in the way, so I've balanced the throttle plates against each other at full closed position mechanically, by watching the TPS for increase while repeatedly opening and closing the throttles after adjusting the balance screw. The point where the TPS starts to indicate an increase is the point where the RH throttle closing takes over from the LH throttle. It's rough and I don't yet know how well this works. It is possible to get at the balance screw without removing the airbox, so if I can obtain a suitable vacuum adaptor later I'll be able to do this as per normal procedure.

    The LH throttle stop screw is the stop for the pair of throttle bodies, since that's the one with the TPS. I think it's daft - the screw is completely inaccessible under the airbox, while the RH stop screw is beside the cables on the outboard RH side of the bike and can be got at - but that's what the procedures say, so that's what I've done. This was wound in until I got 404 mV signal. That's the Euro setting, there are several:

    Euro: 404 mV
    USA: 460 mV
    Swiss: 505 ? mV
    OEM Manual: 560 mV

    This caused some doubt until I realised that with the 150 mV datum set, all this changes is the idle angle setting of the throttle plates. That's the base idle speed setting, effectively. The air bleed screws change the idle mixture and thus also the idle speed, but this closed throttle angle has to be set first. I'm trying to sort out an over fast idle so went with the most closed throttle, ie the Euro setting, 404 mV / 2.4 degrees.

    This done, the airbox was refitted and I set the air bleed screws to 1 turn out, then tried running the bike, idling until it reached operating temperature. I pulled a spark plug, found the nose to be a very light tan colour, and decided that I'd got as close as I was likely to. I'm not keen to breach the seal on the ECU if I can avoid it. If there's a discharge or short circuit, or I damage the trimpot, that's it, new ECU. I think it should be possible to set idle speed and mixture by iterating between the throttle stop position and the air bleed screws, without touching the ECU, but this would depend on the ECU trimpot being set correctly to start with.

    Care has to be taken with the throttle adjustment screws. The original yellow Ducati marking paint / loctite is good stuff and does not allow free motion. It's easy to stuff screw heads up. From the looks of things, this is the first time that the throttle bodies have ever been touched since leaving the factory; it's been 40,000 km's and they're supposed to be adjusted every 10,000. It's a fiddly and involved procedure, the bike still ran pretty well, so I can understand why it's been skipped... but throttle plates do wear under airflow. TPS sensors wear with throttle motion and oxidise etc as well. There's a reason for the service interval.

    The final note I'll put here was difficulty removing and refitting the airbox. The manual didn't go into detail about this, it seems that this is supposed to pretty well pop straight off and push straight back on. Not for me... I ended up removing the ignition switch / tank latch assembly and having to take the vertical cylinder connector rubber off and out completely (through the airbox) before I could get the airbox off.

    Refitting the airbox was difficult, putting it mildly. I had to take a couple of hours and several goes before I worked out a method - either it wouldn't go into the frame, or the rubber wouldn't go on. Very frustrating. For anyone else needing to do this:

    1) lightly sand the edges of the hole for the LH rubber connector on the airbox, as manufactured there are some sharp edges
    2) grease the airbox hole edges and the lip of the rubber connector flange (not essential but it helps)
    3) fit the LH rubber connector to the vertical cylinder injector body
    4) drop the airbox in, fit the RH rubber connector (left attached to the box) to its throttle body, get the LH connector flange centered and square where it presses against the outside of the airbox
    5) check rotation of the LH rubber connector. The flange and airbox are marked with a position indicator. Pull airbox off again and rotate connector as necessary. You'll be able to feel when the indicators line up.
    6) the frustrating bit... refit airbox, pop RH connector onto throttle, square up LH connector again, then with fingers and a large, flat-blade screwdriver, guide the connector flange into the airbox hole. Work around the perimeter and engage the entire circumference, advancing in small stages. The connector flange will look tapered or conical inside the airbox while this is being done. The trick here is to prevent the flange from buckling. It'll pop into place eventually.
    7) tighten hose clamps, refit the 3 bolts, the oil breather hose, air filter and lid etc.

    Right, time to see how it all worked out. I really hope it did, it's been two full days work to sort something that on a carburetted bike is as simple as turning a screw.
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    Last edited by OddDuck; 28th December 2018 at 08:40. Reason: second day's work

  5. #110
    Join Date
    8th July 2018 - 07:46
    Bike
    Ducati ST2 2003
    Location
    whakatane
    Posts
    11

    throttle cable

    Thanks for the post very interesting
    I just spent 3 days on our ST2, fitted a second hand ohlins rear shock, so while doing so decided to pull the swing arm and grease the bearings / suspension rocker bearings, then pulled the front forks and put in 460mls 5 weight fork oil, greased the steering head bearings and decided to change the cam belts, upper aduster had 2 shot bearings (6201), interestingly my throttle cable housing adjuster end is also very rusty where it connects to the TPI so i will keep an eye that.
    Also spent a few hours with a fibreglass kit glassing up an unknown crack in my LH fairing.
    3 days later all good.
    Noel

  6. #111
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
    Posts
    1,091
    Well, I turned out to be wrong about balancing the throttles mechanically... it really does need vacuum. The mechanical attempt ended up a full turn away from the balance point and wasn't really dialled in.

    My vacuum gauges wouldn't fit with the engine in frame - there was a cross member blocking access to one of the screw in taps. I found and ordered a cute little 90 degree vacuum banjo elbow from RadioSpares, stock no. 851-4273. This really wants a particular hose size to work properly, ID 4mm, OD 6 mm. I managed with existing hoses and cable ties instead of the proper screw-on hose retainer.

    Anyway, got there, ended up about 1/8th of a turn away from the original setting. Really there wasn't any practical difference at adjustments this fine and simply returning to the as-factory setting would have been as good. Note that I balanced with airbox, filter etc in place, the final photo was taken after pulling the airbox again so that I could loctite the balance screw. I really don't want this moving once the bike's back on the road.

    However the bike is still running rough, idling high (again) and bucking, particularly on start up. I'm having one cylinder drop out occasionally. I suspect gunked up fuel injectors, so cleaning these up somehow is the next job.
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  7. #112
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
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    1,091
    Changing some worn sprocket carrier bearings.

    Ducati use a semi-floating sprocket design - there are five shock absorbing rubber cushings pressed into the rear wheel. The sprocket carrier uses five fingers to lock into the wheel and effectively floats on the rear axle via two central bearings.

    I'd noticed quite a bit of flop play on the carrier, and lately it had started making an odd clicking sound, particularly when the bike was being pushed backwards. It seemed to be the carrier moving on its five fingers, since the clicking sound seemed to correspond to one fifth of a wheel rotation. If allowed to continue, it'll cause wear and damage to the five cushings and fingers. Bearings (these ones anyway) are cheap and easy to get, the sprocket fingers and cushing aren't.

    The OEM bearings are standard SKF parts: 6006-2RS1/C3, with 2 used in the carrier. They're pressed into the hub face to face, with a circlip retaining them. It's a very simple, straightforward bearing change job: pull old bearings (or flip over and drive out from center), then drive new bearings home, replace circlip, job done. Basic gear is a bearing puller with a slide hammer, a bearing driver plate set, and a hammer. A press is nice but not essential. The bearing OD is 55 mm, an ideal driving installation plate would be around 54 mm OD.

    For anyone doing their first bearing change and reading this: bearings are almost always mounted on the outer race. Getting them out means pulling or driving on the inner race, since the bearing is usually mounted in a cup of some sort. Typically there isn't access to the back of the outer race, so you have to pull from the center, not the outside. That means transmitting shock loads through the raceways and rolling elements while getting them out, in short, once they're out, they've been hammered. If they weren't stuffed before then they are now. You can't re-use them.

    When fitting new bearings, you have to drive the outer race only, to avoid putting brutal impacts through raceways etc. That can be difficult: there's only about 2mm of wall thickness to drive on, so you need driver plates of the right diameter. My set didn't have them and I don't have a lathe at home to turn up the right size. In the end I used the old, stuffed bearings as intermediate drivers, with an oversized plate on top, and pulled the old bearings out again with the slide hammer and collet puller once I was done.

    The photos show that the outer bearing has been spinning freely in the carrier, when it's supposed to be a light interference push fit. I'm not sure how this happened. I've used Loctite bearing mount to secure the new bearing.

    The picture of the carrier sitting in a stainless steel bowl, on a concrete garden path, might need some explanation: I was trying to warm the carrier up pre bearing installation, by solar collection. All the gear that's needed is a cheap old stainless steel kitchen bowl and a hot sunny day. Leave your greasy, stinky item in the bowl, the bowl out in the sun, after an hour or so it will have warmed up. This did actually work, sort of. It got quite warm instead of hot. I had a bowl that was too small and a windy day. Ideally the sprocket carrier would have got too hot to touch and then the new bearings would have just dropped in, didn't quite happen and I had to drive them in, but warming it up did help.

    Reinstalling the rear axle is worth mentioning: it's much easier going in from the chain side. The brake caliper carrier is a very close slide fit on the axle and it tends to cause things to jam if you try to refit the axle from the brake side.
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  8. #113
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
    Location
    Lower Hutt
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    1,091

    Clean Injectors and (unrelated) Near Miss

    I'd pulled the injectors and sent them to this outfit:

    http://www.injectortech.co.nz/

    On return, the injectors, fuel lines, airbox etc were refitted and the bike fired up first time. I've had it out and about for the last couple of days and so far it's riding very nicely.

    I've held off the final step in Brad Black's tuning procedure - getting into the ECU and adjusting the trimpot - for now, since mixture seems OK if on the lean side. That's stock, apparently the normal tuning map is lean across the board and either a Ducati Performance chip or a re-flash is required if it is to be changed. It might be worth doing if I decide to upgrade the mufflers etc at some point.

    The near miss is worth mentioning more for a safety detail than for the miss itself - a large American pickup truck completely failed to give way to me at a roundabout and pulled out in front of me. The woman in the right side seat saw me; the driver didn't.

    I went back and had a (perfectly friendly) chat with the bloke. If there'd been a collision it would have been a classic SMIDSY with an equally classic Failure To Give Way charge. It was a left hand drive truck. I'd been completely hidden from the driver by his passenger. He hadn't bothered leaning forward to get a clear view of the road. He certainly hadn't heard the bike, despite having windows in the truck open.

    LH drive vehicles are a reality through Lower Hutt, particularly on sunny Sundays. I had a think about the near miss and really there are only a couple of things the biker can do:

    - make the visual target wider by fitting outrigger auxiliary headlights or similar

    - change lane position so there's line of sight to everyone up-front in the vehicle

    Loud pipes might - might - have helped. Otherwise the biker is reliant on the driver. This guy was pretty casual though.

  9. #114
    Join Date
    23rd February 2007 - 08:47
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    Suzuki gsxr 600k7. Hayabusa K9 DRZ250 K
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    CHCH
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    1,905
    Worthy reminder. How much for the injector service?

  10. #115
    Join Date
    14th July 2006 - 21:39
    Bike
    2015, Ducati Streetfighter
    Location
    Christchurch
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    9,083
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    8
    Injectors are interesting - I run a cleaner in the fuel for the cars before a oil/filter change. To be fair I have no idea if it works.

    I've never done a bike.

    I cleaned out the throttle body of the XR6 last weekend as it was not starting to it's usual standard. Fixed for a $15 can of spray and fifteen minutes of my time. Runs sweet.

    Never did that to a bike.


    Are we missing something here?

  11. #116
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
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    Lower Hutt
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    1,091
    Injector cleaning: approx $40 per injector. The procedure is that the injector is checked electrically (coil winding resistance and insulation resistance to body), then it's hooked up to a pressure rig running the appropriate solvents / cleaners and pulsed with flow forward and back. Ultrasonic cleaning is done as well. They replace the fine mesh filter at the inlet of the injector and the O-rings too. There's a few places doing this sort of service. The idea is to totally remove all the gunk and tar that builds up over the years. The injectors can end up not flowing enough fuel, or failing to seal properly and dribbling constantly.

    Injector cleaning products that are added to a fuel tank... I tried some of the cheaper stuff but not much joy, not once the bike started running rough anyway. Apparently Caltex's Techron additive works, and you can buy that in a bottle, but it's DIY import stuff. Nobody seems to carry it inside NZ.

    Throttle body cleaning is worthwhile too - air bleed passages can gunk up - but it's a separate thing to sorting the injectors themselves. I did have a good look at the throttle bodies for the ST2 while the injectors were away, the throttles were still in good shape.

  12. #117
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
    Bike
    2000 Ducati ST2
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    Lower Hutt
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    1,091

    Crankcase Oil Breather

    Changing out the stuffed OEM crankcase breather - this had started breathing oil all over the rear of the engine and possibly was also making a buzzing noise. Unfortunately Ducati are well known for the stock plastic bodied breathers failing over time. Heat plus oil gets them. Either the aluminium creeps, or the plastic shrinks, anyway they don't last forever.

    The first step was to get the old one off. I tried a few things, which didn't work...

    Trying to get a C spanner into place - frustrating. Looks like it's just possible to get a clean shot at applying torque, no, after roughly two hours of trying I'd say it isn't possible. But it looks like it could happen... just... Honestly you'd have to pull the engine and pull the cylinder to do it this way.

    Trying a home-made band wrench on the breather's outer aluminium ring. Nope. The ring just spins on the plastic inside.

    Trying vise grips on the top plastic fitting at the neck. Nope, same again - plastic top and aluminium ring spin, but the plastic base doesn't release.

    The most frustrating bit about the whole thing is that if you could just somehow get a spot of torque onto the damn base, it'd come straight off. Yes, I thought of the thing with using a punch at an angle on one of the C-spanner holes. The risk with that approach is shattering the base and then having bits drop into the engine.

    This thing really wasn't Ducati's finest moment in terms of service design. Finally I had a go at just ripping it apart while still on the bike, to strip it down to just the base piece so that a C-spanner could be fitted... it turns out that the aluminium used is as soft a grade as possible. I was able to cut it with sidecutters and tear it with pliers / screwdriver. While doing this, enough torque was applied that it did finally unscrew.

    It helps greatly during this work to get clear access. The rear brake reservoir pretty well pops under the frame and out of the way without any more fuss than undoing the mounting screw and cutting one cable tie.
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  13. #118
    Join Date
    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    2000 Ducati ST2
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    Lower Hutt
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    1,091
    A quick look at the crankcase breather itself, just for curiosity's sake.

    The new Ducabike breather turned out to feature the exact same insert as the stock breather. Same sub-contractor brand, same reeds, everything. There's no performance advantage to using this, if there's all that much in a breather valve anyway. I know that deliberately evacuating a crankcase does yield performance improvements, but the best way to do that is usually a dedicated pump of some kind. Maybe it's worth setting that up on a race bike but on a tourer simplicity and reliability win, if more power is needed then generally the rider is better off with more valves or more cubes or both.

    One major factor in favor of the Ducabike breather is that someone had the brains to put a 14mm hex socket into the outlet pipe. Brilliant. Why aren't they all like this, honestly it's even better than the Nichols breather I've got on the 900SS.

    The OEM breather had originally been sealed with what looks like silicone. There was still a lot of it on the crankcase threads. The stuff inside the breather itself had come apart and possibly caught on a reed. Overall condition was surprisingly good, considering it was 18 y.o. plastic and drenched in burnt engine oil. I've thrown the casings away but kept the reed assembly, possibly it's useful as a spare.
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  14. #119
    Join Date
    1st June 2014 - 21:23
    Bike
    Ducati 748R
    Location
    nelson
    Posts
    173
    I used a small carby pod filter on the Duke I had, lasted years and looked the park.

  15. #120
    Join Date
    14th July 2006 - 21:39
    Bike
    2015, Ducati Streetfighter
    Location
    Christchurch
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    9,083
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    Just did the 40K service - no photos sorry, posting for other owners contemplating doing their own work.


    Forks: you need a couple of specific tools to change the fork oil. They're both pricey and specific but the job apparently goes much smoother if these tools are present (no, haven't done it yet). There isn't a drain bolt so the forks have to come out of the bike completely for this.

    So you are at least in you early - late fifties (mid here) if you remember the simple task of a fork drain bolt when changeling oil. It always reminded me of milking a cows teat. I'm sure they were deleted in the 90's. Shame as it avoided fork removal from the bike.

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