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Thread: Summer running - 2000 Ducati ST2

  1. #46
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    3rd March 2008 - 11:55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    No problem there, it's just that the low height / high torque of the fastener can very easily introduce a problem due to the chamfer on most sockets. I had a look with my existing cheapo Powerbilt set and found that I'd get 3mm of engagement on the fastener, maybe less. There's 7mm of height to work with. Torque front: 63 Nm. Torque rear: 83 Nm.

    The next bit was that the steel plates under the swingarm nuts each had a tab bent. I'd guess that they got abused during tightening up, rotating under the nut instead of staying in position on the swingarm.
    Usually I just swing a big crescent on the axle nuts, haven't had them fall off yet. I was actually contemplating getting a couple of spanners laser cut out of some plate stainless, one day when I get around to it.

    I've had to straighten the tabs on the axle plates as well, and while I'm there mark the centre, and mark the centre of the alignment marks before I put them back on. It's not the most elegant arrangement I've ever seen.
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  2. #47
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    2000 Ducati ST2
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    Quote Originally Posted by neels View Post
    Usually I just swing a big crescent on the axle nuts, haven't had them fall off yet. I was actually contemplating getting a couple of spanners laser cut out of some plate stainless, one day when I get around to it.
    My mate was doing similar with his bike, just using a crescent on the axle nuts. He reckoned he'd been doing it up good and tight. We were halfway through a multi-dayer when we realised that his chain was getting slack... the rear axle was walking forward. The only thing holding it really was the adjustor bolts. It turned out that the best he could do with a 12" crescent was about 25-ish Nm; the torque figure for the rear axle was 100 Nm.

    Your situation hopefully is a bit better...

    Toledo torque wrench in the 1/2" format, about $85 to $110. 30mm socket, $18 or so.

    A while ago I tried tightening by hand versus using a torque wrench, finding out whether I was any good at it... turned out I was rubbish, and after that I've used the torque wrench.

  3. #48
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    3rd March 2008 - 11:55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    My mate was doing similar with his bike, just using a crescent on the axle nuts. He reckoned he'd been doing it up good and tight. We were halfway through a multi-dayer when we realised that his chain was getting slack... the rear axle was walking forward. The only thing holding it really was the adjustor bolts. It turned out that the best he could do with a 12" crescent was about 25-ish Nm; the torque figure for the rear axle was 100 Nm.

    Your situation hopefully is a bit better...

    Toledo torque wrench in the 1/2" format, about $85 to $110. 30mm socket, $18 or so.

    A while ago I tried tightening by hand versus using a torque wrench, finding out whether I was any good at it... turned out I was rubbish, and after that I've used the torque wrench.
    Probably should check them properly then....particularly as there is no locking mechanism whatsoever on the nuts.

    Correct torque on axle bolts is a nice idea, not only so the nuts don't fall off but also so you don't end up with crushed swingarms like I've seen on a couple of bikes, I haven't had a good look at where the axle goes through on the ducati to see how it's put together and if overtightening will damage it.

    I can usually take a reasonable guess at getting the torque about right, it helps to have tested torque wrenches for a living for a few years. From experience I know that the point when my arm starts shaking swinging on the 1/2" power bar doing up cortina head bolts is about 80lbf.ft
    Riding cheap crappy old bikes badly since 1987

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  4. #49
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Quote Originally Posted by neels View Post
    Correct torque on axle bolts is a nice idea, not only so the nuts don't fall off but also so you don't end up with crushed swingarms like I've seen on a couple of bikes, I haven't had a good look at where the axle goes through on the ducati to see how it's put together and if overtightening will damage it.
    The axle tensioners function as spacers inside the swingarm box sections, the box section will flex enough to nip up against the tensioner. After that it's solid metal the whole way through.

    Crushed swingarms? What's been going on?

  5. #50
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Fairings off in the garage today for the first time.

    This is due to the motor cutting out on me yesterday during a trip downtown. I'd been just about to park up anyway, it died as I was walking the bike backward into the park... righto, maybe it's an overheat shutdown or something. Go off and do things, give it twenty minutes and see if it comes back after it's cooled down.

    Er, no. I was turning the key and getting dash and lights but no engine joy whatever. The starter motor wouldn't even spin up, let alone turn the engine over. Right. Cutting a long story short, it turned out to be blown fuses. The two 7.5 A fuses had cooked and failed, for reasons unknown. Replacement got me home, however this isn't a good way to go out on the open road. Investigations needed.

    Just some things noticed now that the fairings are finally off... all the wellnuts are rooted. So are the vibration isolators carrying the dash instruments, and the plastic instrument panel is cracked at the mounts too. The fairings feature concealed fasteners, which is a pain. The coils are on either flank of the bike, which is a strange design but would have excellent magnetic separation due to distance. It looks like there's been a leak at some point between the radiator and one of its hoses, which is probably best left well alone unless it leaks again. Not a good idea to disturb old rubber hoses like this, unless brand new spares are to hand.

    I've been putting this off, waiting on the first Stein Dinse order to arrive, but I should have done this earlier. Always good to know how the fairings come off and what's underneath them.
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  6. #51
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Starting

    With the fairings off, I got onto one of the to-do jobs and cleaned up the terminals between battery, starter solenoid and starter motor.

    Simple enough: go looking for grease, dirt and oxidation, remove these, reassemble. A surprise was finding that Ducati had released the bike with passivation coating most of the nuts, washers, and the battery terminal adaptors.

    Passivation is a thin coating which protects against corrosion to some degree, is easily scratched, and makes an apparent electrical connection once everything is tightened up. What it doesn't do very well is make a good high amperage connection. Trying to get 50 amps or more through the starter motor needs good metal-to-metal contact through the entire starter circuit, with broad contact and conduction areas. Anywhere current is restricted, a voltage drop will occur and oomph will be lost.

    Some sanding of eyelets, nut faces, replacement of washers etc later and I was away. I haven't run the bike yet but have tried starting it. Massive improvement. The delay (press button, wait, one, two... there we go) is gone. It engages and turns the engine over straightaway.

    I haven't tracked the issue with the 7.5A fuses down yet. It's possible that the fuses went due to oxidation on their connectors leading to a high resistance hotspot, local heating and thus the fuses getting cooked. It's possible that simply pulling and replacing them, thereby wiping the oxidation off the connectors, sorted the issue. It's sort of hopeful but I'll try a local ride or two with a pocket full of spares, and see how I go.
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  7. #52
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    3rd March 2008 - 11:55
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    Quote Originally Posted by OddDuck View Post
    The axle tensioners function as spacers inside the swingarm box sections, the box section will flex enough to nip up against the tensioner. After that it's solid metal the whole way through.

    Crushed swingarms? What's been going on?
    Thanks, saved me having a look.

    Have seen a couple of swingarms with axles through them that have had the crap cranked out of them, if there's nothing inside and things get done up super tight things end up the wrong shape.

    Anyway, stop finding things I need to check on my bike, although the upside is that I thought mine was a bit rough but apparently there are worse ones out there in the world.......
    Riding cheap crappy old bikes badly since 1987

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  8. #53
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    ST2 / 3 / 4 mufflers - high and low positions

    Having a play with the mufflers.

    The ST2 is an unusual bike in that the mufflers are designed to quickly and easily raise or lower, as per OEM design. It almost takes longer to read this than to do it... there's a swivel arrangement in the tubing on the forward part of the muffler, where it joins the cross of the exhaust headers. The two swivels (one for each muffler) are tensioned against each other with a spring.

    There's a bolt on the muffler hangar. The bolt has two possible positions, one lower on the bracket that carries the hard bags, one higher on the bracket for the pillion passenger foot pegs. Undo bolt, swivel muffler into new position, replace and retighten bolt. That's it, there's no need to undo the front end of the mufflers for this. Takes about a minute per side unless you're using Loctite. I'd thought I might have to take the hard bag brackets off, it turns out that this can be done if you like or they can be left on so that hard bags go on again easy later.

    It's a simple enough idea: lower muffler position so that hard bags with a decent capacity will go on, higher muffler position for improved ground clearance and thus more lean angle in corners for sportier riding. The photos attempt to show this, I was interested in seeing if the foot pegs would start grounding before the mufflers did. It does look like there's a big difference in ground clearance between the two muffler positions.

    The photos are shot with the RH muffler raised, the LH muffler lowered. The last two photos are rotated crops of the two front pictures.
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  9. #54
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    14th July 2006 - 21:39
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    Years back I imported from Harbor Freight in USA a big arse vernier that allows me to measure from the centre of the swingarm pin to the rear axle - match on both sides and the rear end is sweet.

    Not used on the current Ducati as it's a single sided swingarm so a cam adjuster.

    Agree re Ducati's skimpy little axle nuts (weight saving?) I purchased some purpose built sockets that lock in the hollow axle as well as the nut. The rear on mine gets wound up to something silly and the scoket needs to be secure. And a front axle driver tool to tap it out sweetly. Any excuse for tools

  10. #55
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    Just back from a five-day tour around the center of the North Island and around the East Cape. We basically did a big loop northwest, crossed east, then returned south. Highlights when riding were SH4 at sunset, going north west of Lake Taupo, the roads and little lakes east of Rotorua, the East Cape itself and Route 52, even if got windy on the last day. My mate had a few friends to see along the way and one came with us for part of the way, showing us some new back country roads between Hastings and Waipukurau.

    Good back country roads, good riding, incredibly pretty on the north side of the Cape. It's been a fun trip.

    However it wouldn't be touring without the unexpected...

    We had to reverse the route at the last minute because of the weather. There was some juggling of motel bookings. Online bookings turned out to be surprisingly inflexible, the motellier can't change the booking without the request going through the online agency. The agency (AA Travel) doesn't seem to use a completely automated system, it looks like there are people in an office somewhere negotiating changes manually. We got there in the end but I think I'll be picking up the phone and calling the motel directly in future.

    I'd made a last minute decision to go in riding jeans and a synthetic jacket with a zip-off collar (there's mesh venting frontage underneath that) instead of leathers, this paid off big time around Gisborne. There were only a couple of days that were hot but having breathable gear with vents was fantastic, particularly when messing around trying to chase up a clutch hose (yep, more unexpected).

    There was a morning that was cold like winter, leaving Ohakune and going north past Ruapehu and Tongariro. I'd brought full thermals out of long habit and it was just as well... heated grips for the bike just got justified even in the middle of what's supposed to be the hottest summer we've had in a while.

    The clutch hose failed halfway through the trip. Not completely, it didn't pop off or start jetting fluid or anything, but one of the crimp joints let go enough that I could only hold the clutch in for about five seconds. After that, enough of the fluid would have leaked out that the clutch was engaging again, like it or not. I'd learned about the technique of clutchless gear changes on a RideForever course and practised briefly earlier and it was just as well... I've been changing gears like this for the last three days. It's alright when at open road speeds (mostly) but a real pain in traffic situations. The clutch has worked enough to be usable at the lights and starting, but I've been having to refill the reservoir every morning and rinse the bike down with a water bottle at every stop. Brake fluid has been spraying around while riding. So far the paint and plastic have been holding up despite this, at least in the bits that I can see.

    We did some running around looking for replacement hose in the biggest town we came to (Gisborne), trying two bike dealerships and a hydraulic hose and fitting outfit. No luck whatever, while running around in bike gear during the middle of the day. In the end I decided to just complete the trip with the bike the way it was and sort the mess out at home.

    The biggest unexpected of the trip was the kitten. We'd gone for dinner on the first night and on the way back we heard some weird bird calling... hang on, no, that's a kitten. It was bailed up in a hedge beside the main road in Ohakune and the poor little thing was terrified, it took nearly half an hour to coax it out.

    No collar, no tag, had it been dumped or was it a runaway, it didn't really matter. Couldn't leave it there. There was a place with lights still on nearby so we tried door knocking but without any luck, it wasn't theirs. So it came back with us for the night.

    What an affectionate little beast. Once she had some milk and a defrosted and decrumbed fish finger into her, all she wanted to do was curl up to whoever was holding her and purr. She was really panicked from having been left roadside though, every time we tried to put her down she'd start calling for attention again, or try to hide, or both. So we couldn't leave her fenced in in the kitchen with a tray and just deal with the inevitable mess in the morning... my mate ended up with 'the duty' and got kept awake all night with a kitten curled up against his face. And there was a code brown at 2am. Next time, kitty's going on lino flooring or into a box for the night, yowling and crying be damned.

    We had some more fun and games in the morning trying to find either the owner or a home. It was Ohakune, there isn't an SPCA or anything close. It was tempting to box her up, put her in the tank bag and take her home, but maybe she really was someone's and they were looking for her. So at 8am in a small country town on a Saturday, I went looking for public notices... mentioning the situation at the petrol station got me a contact phone number for a local woman who helps with community things like this, but trying to make contact with people while we're about to hit the road again didn't really work out. Messages were left etc but it took time to get responses. Nobody would accept the kitten, even on a temporary basis. We couldn't ride with her. In the end we improvised a box, put the kitten into a bag and down a jacket and rode to the nearest vet, with the plan of leaving her there over the weekend with food, water and a note. Three local teenage girls came past and my mate asked if they'd mind checking on her over the Sunday before the vet turned up again on Monday, they took one look at the little cutie, and that was that. Adored and taken.

    Maybe the original owner will chase her up and track her down but given how affectionate this little cat was, she's almost certain to find a home.
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  11. #56
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    13th March 2008 - 14:26
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    Slow fluid leak control

    If you can get at the leaky bit a couple of cable ties and either some cotton rag or a length of cotton crepe bandage can save you having to clean up a mess. Wrap a decent amount of the absorbent material around and below the slow leak. Secure in place with the cable ties. Replace as and when required. It is surprising how far a little uncontained fluid can spread and just how much a decent layer of cotton can absorb.

    When I'm on the road there's always a dozen cable ties somewhere on the bike and the crepe bandage is in the first aid kit.

    Most Repco/Super Cheap stores have cable ties and any chemist has a cotton crepe bandage.

  12. #57
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    3rd February 2004 - 08:11
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    Good on you for rescuing the kitten. Good karma should be coming your way (like maybe you can ride without something breaking)
    it's not a bad thing till you throw a KLR into the mix.
    those cheap ass bitches can do anything with ductape.
    (PostalDave on ADVrider)

  13. #58
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    2000 Ducati ST2
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    Thanks MarkW - good advice. I carry cable ties in the tank bag but not a med kit, might be time to change that.

    Pete376403 - yeah that'd be nice!! It really hasn't been the luckiest few months... argh

    Last night I had the chance (finally) to test a modification I'd made to the front stand. I'd added weights to the handle (the V-shaped bit of tubing with a black foam rubber sleeve) and turned up a correctly sized adaptor to fit to the head tube.

    The weights are some 4oz and 2oz fishing sinkers, dropped into the handle tube and retained via rag stuffing and the through bolts connecting the handle to the rest of the stand. They're intended to help the stand stay down, locked to the ground.

    The adaptor is huge compared to the pieces supplied with the stand. It took a few hours to lathe this down to size. I purchased the 1020 steel bar from Wakefield Metals over the phone with a credit card - they'll cut a piece and put it in the post, both of these for a fee but you don't have to buy a full length.

    This has worked. The weights help, but the adaptor is what really made the difference. Keeping the stand neck tightly in line with the steering tube has locked the stand to the bike and so removed the risk of the stand collapsing.

    The height at the rear axle is important as well. With the bike on its own centerstand, the front stand doesn't quite lock in to the ground properly. With the bike raised an inch or two on the rear stand, the front stand does engage properly and becomes fixed in place. Something about the angles, with such a rigid connection between stand and bike, the bike angle relative to the floor starts to become important.

    I'm happy that this is secure and safe (well, as safe as a stand gets), I'll have to sort out something for bobbins for the rear wheel stand at some point.
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  14. #59
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    First go at assembling a hydraulic hose - replacing the blown clutch line.

    I'd marked to length by comparing against the old clutch line, after pulling this off the bike. The needle file was used to get through the stainless braid without too much snagging and pulling on the wires. I had to use a knife to get through the plastic core.

    Assembly was straightforward. The collar goes onto the hose first. The ferrule goes onto the plastic hose and under the braid. The banjo is pushed in, then the collar is tightened. About the only trap is not putting the ferrule onto the hose to full depth, I had to push the hose against the vise to get this to seat fully.

    I'd had the bright idea of final assembly on the bike, so that banjo angles would be perfect. Nice idea, didn't quite work. The torque between the collar and the hose was far higher than that between hose and banjo, so all that ended up happening was that the hose spun while I tried to tighten the collar. In the end I had to pull the hose off the bike, clamp the banjo in the vise (Vise protector jaws used), and repeatedly tighten, fit, check angles, and tighten a little more to get something that would work.

    It's do-able but laborious. I had to settle for a misalignment of 25-ish degrees, having run out of room to tighten things up further. This might explain why most of the professional hoses are crimped, there'd be none of this messing around with final angles.

    I've got a set of professionally made hoses on order - this isn't a final replacement. The (removed) clutch line and the brake lines all look original, i.e. they're all about the same age, and if the clutch line has gone then the brake lines can't be far behind. A full set of brand-name, braided SS lines out of Stein Dinse cost around 400 NZD landed, so why not.
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  15. #60
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    28th January 2015 - 16:17
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    A last note about the hose replacement - the last stage of the fill and bleed was to clear the air trapped in the master cylinder banjo. This was done by filling and capping the reservoir, then removing the left clip-on at its triple tree mounting.

    The bar was then held vertical, hose down, and the lever lightly worked a few cycles. The reason for this is to allow bubbles trapped in both the banjo and the cylindrical cavity at the banjo bolt nose to clear upwards into the master cylinder's piston. Once there, they get pushed out at the little intake hole to the reservoir, at the beginning of the piston stroke.

    It sounds weird but it works. The reason I did this was that there's simply no other way I can think of, in a home garage situation, to clear those bubbles. There's only so much flowrate possible by pumping the lever.

    Next little job was replacement of the instrument cluster rubber mounts. These are simple male-to-male M5 rubber vibration isolation mounts. For some reason there's one on the bottom, one on the RH side, and one almost bang in the center. The centre mount then takes most of the loading and this one had failed completely. The two on the periphery were badly cracked. I've been riding with the instrument set shaking and bouncing. Once the fairings were off, it's just a twenty minute, slightly fiddly job to undo the aluminium instrument sub-frame and get in there to change them out.

    Starting the 30K service... there's the usual checklist of plugs, oil change and filters (air, oil and fuel). I'm taking the attitude that it (whatever it is) probably hasn't been looked at in quite some time or was bodged, it's worth going through everything.

    Plugs: sooty. Not oiled. I did catch myself running with the choke left on during the recent East Cape trip, possibly this is the cause.

    The metal shavings all over the drain plug aren't the best look. This is what happens when a clutch hose lets go and a rider has to bang their way through the gears... the gearbox engagement dogs get a pounding. It's still holding itself in gear, there's no need for a full stripdown or any such extreme response, but obviously I shouldn't make a habit of clutchless shifting for road touring.

    The metal on the mesh filter is also a concern. The magnetic drain plug picks up ferrous shavings but aluminium / babbit metal will just go straight past that, hence any big-end bearing disintegration will show up on the mesh filter and nowhere else, unless the waste oil is strained and examined. This is why it's worth pulling this filter at every oil change and having a look... the Ducati owner's manual specifies 20-50 oil. 10-40 is there in the allowed oil chart (provided ambient doesn't exceed something like 30 C) but isn't preferred. I'm sure it's been running 10-40 out of the dealer's and probably for some time before that, could someone with more experience comment on the effect this would have on big end bearings please?

    The chain and sprocket set came back from the trip completely stuffed. They were mostly stuffed when I set off, to be fair.

    It looks like every trace of lubricant got flung out past the O-rings, hence the mess all over the rear of the bike. I wasn't oiling while on the trip and we covered quite a distance, nearly 2,000 kms. This led to lots of steel-on-steel wear (note the red dust coming out of the chain) and obvious chain sag. Replacement time, and possibly time to consider an automatic oiler.
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