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Thread: 20 50 mineral oil

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanB View Post
    It feels like water in the container when you shake it. All about fuel economy and meeting silly American ratings - thin oil means less friction with gives them a better economy rating.
    Quote Originally Posted by gravediggerNZ View Post
    hmmm how long is a engine gon last on 0 oil.
    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    The arrival of synthetics has changed the game somewhat. Some synthetics labelled, say 20w 50, would actually perform like 0w 50 but the manufacturers wouldn't put that on the packaging because people would assume - incorrectly - that the oil is too thin.
    The chase for fuel economy has resulted in a few interesting side effects in newer vehicles. The engines are designed to be a bit "looser" as in less tension in piston rings, bigger clearances on bearings etc. Add in longer drain intervals, this leads to increased oil consumption, which in days gone by could be used as an indicator the vehicle was due for oil change or even close to needing an engine overhaul. Oh and compared to dinosaur oil from days gone by, the new synthetic stuff indeed runs like water, which makes folks suspicious.

    Personally I look at the 3 decades I've been involved in trucking. The oil has gotten thinner in appearance, drain intervals have gone from 10-15 K to 60 K, and top ups between drain intervals have gone from nil to as much as 10 litres over the 60 K interval.

    The hard part is keeping up with changes in technology...
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akzle View Post


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  3. #18
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    Internet oil threads can turn into flame wars. The best I have seen was on a Ducati owners site, the main protagonist was named George and he had two seperate sets of letters after his name. His job was specifying lubricants for industrial applications, so he was probably an engineer.

    He preferred to talk about Mobil products because it was them with which he was most familiar. He used Mobil because he was known there and if he called about a problem he would immediately be put through to whichever engineers he wished to talk to. He would not necessarily receive that consideration elsewhere.

    He told of some marine gearboxes, real works of art, that suddely started going crunch. As the specifier of the lubricant for the gearboxes he was invited to attend the first postmortem with the designers and some worried executives.

    When the box was unbolted it was full of grease. Definitely not what was specified. Enquiries lead to the assembly line foreman who said, "We ran out of that runny stuff so we put some decent solid stuff in."

    George omitted to mention what happened to the foreman.

    Sadly George binned his Ducati at a track day and was hospitalised. He made a reappearance at the site but a short while later his son advised that he had died suddenly.

    I never met George but I miss him. From time to time questions arise that he would have enjoyed answering.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    Internet oil threads can turn into flame wars. The best I have seen was on a Ducati owners site, the main protagonist was named George and he had two seperate sets of letters after his name. His job was specifying lubricants for industrial applications, so he was probably an engineer.

    He preferred to talk about Mobil products because it was them with which he was most familiar. He used Mobil because he was known there and if he called about a problem he would immediately be put through to whichever engineers he wished to talk to. He would not necessarily receive that consideration elsewhere.

    He told of some marine gearboxes, real works of art, that suddely started going crunch. As the specifier of the lubricant for the gearboxes he was invited to attend the first postmortem with the designers and some worried executives.

    When the box was unbolted it was full of grease. Definitely not what was specified. Enquiries lead to the assembly line foreman who said, "We ran out of that runny stuff so we put some decent solid stuff in."

    George omitted to mention what happened to the foreman.

    Sadly George binned his Ducati at a track day and was hospitalised. He made a reappearance at the site but a short while later his son advised that he had died suddenly.

    I never met George but I miss him. From time to time questions arise that he would have enjoyed answering.
    George sounds like an interesting chap. Not that there's any intent on turning this thread into a battleground.

    Specialist lubricants are a mighty technical topic. Place I work at we pump liquid oxygen, nitrogen and argon, into road tankers. All this product is in the roughly -186 C and lower range. Puts quite a task on the bearings and seals in the pumps, not to mention the lubricant. Always interesting to hear the technical chaps debating...
    If the words I say offend you, imagine the ones I keep to myself...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gravediggerNZ View Post
    hmmm how long is a engine gon last on 0 oil.
    Brock from Brocks Performance recommends it, says he runs it in all his bikes and finds power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Katman View Post
    but once again you proved me wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by cassina View Post
    I was hit by one such driver while remaining in the view of their mirror.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Brock from Brocks Performance recommends it, says he runs it in all his bikes and finds power.
    Mr Scania does too, it reduces internal friction losses. Lowers fuel burn too, raises oil consumption though. No free lunch it seems
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    Quote Originally Posted by nzspokes View Post
    Hey Steve, what is zero weight oil about then? Ta

    Sent from my M5 Note using Tapatalk
    A 0/40 oil is the same viscosity at operating temperature as a 10/40. The two numbers are different scales. Ambient temperature and operating temperature e.g. a "0" is thinner than a "20" when the oil is at ambient temperature. To say a "0/40" weight oil does not give the same protection is ignoring the second scale.
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  8. #23
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    It's a practical way to discribe the way a multigrade oils viscosity behaves as the temperature changes.

    For a given 20W40 oil it is saying it behaves like a thin 20 weight oil at low temperature and like a 40 weight at high temperature.

    I personally prefer the mixed fleet lubes myself, dual pertol/diesel API clasifications and a good strong zinc anti wear package. I do however use Mobil1 V2 or SYN3 (because it gets very hot) in the HD and Mobil1 5w50 in the Lotus (because it is a race car). Everything else gets Valviline 20W40 SG diesel motor oil.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip View Post

    I do however use Mobil1 V2 or SYN3 (because it gets very hot) in the HD
    Mobil 1 V2 cropped up in George's thread. It's perfect in a Harley, or the metric equivalents, that is the intended use. He was adamant that it should not be used in a Ducati (or a KTM or an Aprilia?) 'cause they are a whole 'nother thing.

    Mobil 1 0w-40 is my preference for the car, mainly 'cause turbo.

    That 0 does not actually mean the oil is thin, it means that it will still pour at freezing or some such.



    OK so I went looking, here is a link to the distilled George thread for anyone who is interested: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/in...p?topic=1912.0

    It kicks off by talking about Mobil 1 V2 funny enough.

    While looking for that I came across a comment about zinc in oil. Zinc was there acting as lubrication of last resort so to speak, but then manufacturers cut back the amount in oil sold for cars to save money. Car oils may have no zinc now because apparently the zinc creates problems for catalytic converters. The oil sold for use in trucks (which isn't actually diesel oil, that's what the engine runs on) may still have the full amount of zinc. If trucks don't run cats...
    Last edited by pritch; 1st January 2018 at 15:25. Reason: afterthought
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    so he was probably an engineer.
    If I remember correctly, he was a lubrication engineer. It is written somewhere in that Ducati thread.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by pritch View Post
    Mobil 1 V2 cropped up in George's thread. It's perfect in a Harley, or the metric equivalents, that is the intended use. He was adamant that it should not be used in a Ducati (or a KTM or an Aprilia?) 'cause they are a whole 'nother thing.

    Mobil 1 0w-40 is my preference for the car, mainly 'cause turbo.

    That 0 does not actually mean the oil is thin, it means that it will still pour at freezing or some such.



    OK so I went looking, here is a link to the distilled George thread for anyone who is interested: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/in...p?topic=1912.0

    It kicks off by talking about Mobil 1 V2 funny enough.

    While looking for that I came across a comment about zinc in oil. Zinc was there acting as lubrication of last resort so to speak, but then manufacturers cut back the amount in oil sold for cars to save money. Car oils may have no zinc now because apparently the zinc creates problems for catalytic converters. The oil sold for use in trucks (which isn't actually diesel oil, that's what the engine runs on) may still have the full amount of zinc. If trucks don't run cats...
    I have bookmarked that thanks. There are so many bullshit oil threads its useful to keep one sane one for reference.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by caspernz View Post
    Personally I look at the 3 decades I've been involved in trucking. The oil has gotten thinner in appearance, drain intervals have gone from 10-15 K to 60 K, and top ups between drain intervals have gone from nil to as much as 10 litres over the 60 K interval.
    Caspernz, have a think back at the specification of diesel fuel three decades ago. It had up to 0.3% (3000 ppm) of sulfur in it. When burnt, sulfur created acidic byproducts which the engine oil detergent had to neutralise. In neutralising the acidic combustion byproducts the engine oil's TBN (Total Base Number, or alkalinity reserve) was used up - it was a sacrificial additive.

    Nowdays the level of sulfur in diesel is 10 ppm max, so even with less detergent in the oil of a low SAPS engine oil you're going to be able to extend your oil drain period before you need to change the engine oil. Diesel engine oil formulation has modified somewhat over the last 30 years.

    I remember back in the 1990s when operators of European trucks thought that they could go to 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains here in NZ because that was what the truck manufacturer put in their manuals. But they overlooked the conditions that the manufacturer stipulated, that was 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains if the trucks were operating on light loaded, highway/autobahn conditions running on something like diesel with less than 50 ppm. NZ trucks were operating at higher fuel consumption rates and using much higher sulfur fuel than European trucks, and when we calculated the amount of fuel, and particularly fuel sulfur, being burnt then European trucks should have had 10,000 to 15,000 km oil drains.

    If you also think of the oil consumption of say a Cummins NTC350 back in the 1990s, that might have been 2 Litres over a 15,000 oil drain. Multiply that by 4 and you've got 8 Litres over 60,000 km. Oil consumption is largely affected by the operation of another component of the oil, the dispersant. The dispersant's job is to hold contaminants (mainly soot in a diesel engine) in suspension until it can be removed at oil drain. However, the dispersant can only hold a finite amount of soot in suspension, and once that limit is reached then the excess soot will start to deposit and one area it will deposit in is the piston ring grooves. Extremely small deposits in the ring grooves will affect the performance of the oil piston rings and oil consumption will increase towards the end of an oil drain period.

    I remember in the BOP in the late 80s, some truck operators contracting for KFL were finding that they checked their oil level every morning and as soon as they had to top up 2 L they'd book their truck in for an oil and filter change. They noticed that their oil analysis results showed oil changes between 14,500 and 15,500 km without exception. That was the range that a good quality diesel engine oil could hold the amount of soot generated before it started to interfere with the operation of the piston rings and oil consumption resulted.
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  13. #28
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    i think there is a castrol 0w 60 oil and a certain german car manufacturer uses it.Apparently they have a v10 which can use up to 1l of oil in 1000 k,and that is regarded as "normal".

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Old Steve View Post
    Caspernz, have a think back at the specification of diesel fuel three decades ago. It had up to 0.3% (3000 ppm) of sulfur in it. When burnt, sulfur created acidic byproducts which the engine oil detergent had to neutralise. In neutralising the acidic combustion byproducts the engine oil's TBN (Total Base Number, or alkalinity reserve) was used up - it was a sacrificial additive.

    Nowdays the level of sulfur in diesel is 10 ppm max, so even with less detergent in the oil of a low SAPS engine oil you're going to be able to extend your oil drain period before you need to change the engine oil. Diesel engine oil formulation has modified somewhat over the last 30 years.

    I remember back in the 1990s when operators of European trucks thought that they could go to 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains here in NZ because that was what the truck manufacturer put in their manuals. But they overlooked the conditions that the manufacturer stipulated, that was 30,000 to 45,000 km oil drains if the trucks were operating on light loaded, highway/autobahn conditions running on something like diesel with less than 50 ppm. NZ trucks were operating at higher fuel consumption rates and using much higher sulfur fuel than European trucks, and when we calculated the amount of fuel, and particularly fuel sulfur, being burnt then European trucks should have had 10,000 to 15,000 km oil drains.

    If you also think of the oil consumption of say a Cummins NTC350 back in the 1990s, that might have been 2 Litres over a 15,000 oil drain. Multiply that by 4 and you've got 8 Litres over 60,000 km. Oil consumption is largely affected by the operation of another component of the oil, the dispersant. The dispersant's job is to hold contaminants (mainly soot in a diesel engine) in suspension until it can be removed at oil drain. However, the dispersant can only hold a finite amount of soot in suspension, and once that limit is reached then the excess soot will start to deposit and one area it will deposit in is the piston ring grooves. Extremely small deposits in the ring grooves will affect the performance of the oil piston rings and oil consumption will increase towards the end of an oil drain period.

    I remember in the BOP in the late 80s, some truck operators contracting for KFL were finding that they checked their oil level every morning and as soon as they had to top up 2 L they'd book their truck in for an oil and filter change. They noticed that their oil analysis results showed oil changes between 14,500 and 15,500 km without exception. That was the range that a good quality diesel engine oil could hold the amount of soot generated before it started to interfere with the operation of the piston rings and oil consumption resulted.
    Cheers Steve, the detail that goes along with oils and their uses is a topic I'm interested in obviously. Plenty of weird and wonderful ways of explaining the different approaches, and then add in the variations from one engine manufacturer to another. Then the propaganda from a salesman vs the workshop managers' real life in-service experience. I've actually got more years of running American stuff than European, although I'll admit I prefer the Euro gear. I recall an in-service experience with C12 CATs when they became the engine of choice in the outfit I worked in. Our crew stuck to a 20,000 km oil drain interval, another contractor used the CAT method of fuel burn to guide the oil change, which resulted in drain intervals around 25-26,000 km. Each of our engines made it to 1.2 million km, at which point they got an in-frame rebuild, whereas the other guys' had all but one engine go clunk well before the 1 million mark. The workshop manager talked about "dirty diesel" as in the sulphur content being a bit high to follow the CAT fuel burn method, so in this case you couldn't argue with his logic.

    Nowadays, and after a number of years running 16 litre V8s, the amount of oil burn that's considered either normal or acceptable between oil drains...is somewhat disconcerting to me. Various ways of the manufacturer proclaiming this as being normal of course, but when I'm "topping up" between 5 and 10 litres over either a 40 K or 60 K drain interval, this makes me think it's time for an oil & filter change instead of a top-up. Oh well, it must be ok since we're not seeing in-service failures, but I just can't shake the feeling we're taking the lubricant to the limit

    Quote Originally Posted by BMWST? View Post
    i think there is a castrol 0w 60 oil and a certain german car manufacturer uses it.Apparently they have a v10 which can use up to 1l of oil in 1000 k,and that is regarded as "normal".
    Yes that must be the M5 aye? High performance cars (and bikes) are like a mistress though, expensive to acquire and even more expensive to keep happy...
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  15. #30
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    Not really related to this thread but,

    i have a customer who checks his oil regularily, it’s used in a machine.
    he checks it every 250 hrs and checks and replaces it every 500hr.

    no matter what, he replaces the oil, even though it way under manufacturers specs.

    he hasn’t had any problems.

    his reason. Oil is cheap, repair/replacement is costly


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